Are you sure it's a violation-not the start or end of a dribble?

1999-2000 Rules Book, POE

5. In bounds / Out of Bounds?
There has been some confusion in recent years concerning whether a player may be the last to touch the ball befoer stepping out-of-bounds and then be the first person to touch the ball before returning in bounds.

It is legal, except when there is player control. A player who is dribbling (player control) and steps out of bounds during the dribble, even though he/she is not touching the ball at any time, has violated. A player who is holding the ball and steps out of bounds has obviously violated.

(end of that reference)

Also, 1997-1998 Case Book, Revised Interpretation

31. Play: While A1 is dribbling in the frontcourt, the ball hits his or her foot and bounces away. During the interrupted dribble A1: (a) steps on the sideline; or (b) steps on the division line. A1 then recovers and passes the ball. Ruling: No violation has occurred as A1 is not in player control during an interrupted dribble.

(Note that this revised interp made it to the Case Book as 4.15.5, but doesn't appear in subsequent years.)

I hope that clarifies and puts and end to this discussion.

Bob, it should but I bet it doesn't! :)

It might put an end to this discussion, but I'm sure it will come right back up on its two week cycle . . .

so i was right.

I have no idea why I am doing this,but I'm gonna try again.When A2 catches the ball,he establishes both player control and team control.When A2 then throws the ball,A2 LOSES player control but his team(A) RETAINS team control.A2 now goes out of bounds and returns in bounds.HE DOES NOT HAVE PLAYER CONTROL DURING THIS PERIOD,EVEN THOUGH HIS TEAM STILL HAS CONTROL!!!When A2 touches the ball again in bounds,he again establishes PLAYER CONTROL to go along with the A team control.THERE IS NO FREAKING VIOLATION!Every pertinent,applicable rule has been cited for you.Bob Jenkins even went to considerable time and effort to look up old rulings for you.
Please be advised that if you continue to insist that this is a violation:
1)You will be held personally responsible for Bob Jenkins' head exploding.
2)I will leave my personal quest in the wilds of Ohio,hunt you down(I know where you live),neuter you,puke on your shoes,and then point at your pants!

After editing your post to change the second A1 to A2, you were correct. It's best to point out your error rather than changing your post after people have pointed out the error. As for your original comment:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by crew
rookie i agree with you completely. it is a violation in the first part. in the second part it is a violation if he is the first to touch after stepping out. this is how i have been taught to interpret the play [/QUOTE

Your comment was posted in response to these to situations:

I can see both sides of this, having thought of another way to portray this situation. Technically speaking, the violation occurred the minute A1 stepped OOB, unless you have decided it is an interrupted dribble, in which case we wll never have a violation. However, all you veteran casebook readers out there, consider this:

If A1 pushes the ball away a couple of bounces and A2 runs along and grabs the ball, we have no violation. That push was a pass and the dribble had ended. If A1 goes back and resumes his dribble or grabs the ball, we have never lost player control, and in the latter case the dribble never stopped until the player grabbed it - dribbler was OOB, therefore violation.

So I can clearly see why you might hold the whistle to see what transpires - you are not mind readers. But if and when A1 touches the ball, the violation still technically occurred when and where A1 stepped out, not when and where A1 touched the ball.

In saying crew was right with his edit (changing to A2 tosses and then retrieves), I am assuming we are saying that A2 started a dribble when throwing the ball onto the court. In fact, A2 cannot pass the ball to himself, so if he had control and did not take a shot, was his catch and toss not by definition the start of a dribble if he then went and retrieved it? I did not see where Bob addressed this. Maybe I am missing something in his case examples.

If it is not the start of a dribble, is it not a traveling call to throw the ball to yourself?

He's not throwing the ball to himself - he is simply tapping the ball in (when he had no control) and happens to be the first to get the ball.

You're killing me! :D

If you judge it to be the start of a dribble, it's an interrupted dribble because the ball has momentarily gotten away from him. There's no player control.

It wouldn't be traveling unless he caught or touched the ball, prior to the ball hitting the floor. This is one of only two ways you can travel without holding the ball. (Did you get that Mark? ;))

BTW, I've seen theis play several times and I've never seen the ball thrown. Every time I've ever had it, the ball has been tapped inbounds, and the player has returned to get it. This, again, goes back to looking for something to call. There's nothing there.

Is that 4.15.4D(a)? If so, how is that a travel (double dribble, perhaps), and where is the rule reference (so we don't have to argue if this case book play is removed).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

2)I will leave my personal quest in the wilds of Ohio,hunt you down(I know where you live),neuter you,puke on your shoes,and then point at your pants!

LMAO. I'm so happy that people aren't offended that I revived the "shoes" comment. I always thought it was hysterically funny, for some warped reason; despite its rather graphic description. I'm reading JR's post and I can't stop giggling. :)

Chuck

It's close.

A1, who is holding the ball, is being guarded by B1. He tosses the ball over B1's head, runs around B1, and a) catches the ball and then begins to dribble, or b) allows the ball to hit the floor and then dribbles.

In a), we have traveling. He didn't fumble the ball. He threw a pass to himself. Had he allowed the ball to hit the floor, instead of catching or touching the ball, it could have legally dribbled as he did in b).

With catching, though, isn't the player holding the ball?

BTW, my case book reference was from last year's book - A1 tapped the ball over B1's head, and then started dribbling.