Screen question with video
 

Not sure if this video link thingy will work. If it does, I need your input. This is where I get confused on blind screens. (#40 is my player...)
Illegal screen or foul on my player?

<a href="http://www.mydeo.com/videorequest.asp?XID=925&CID=88531">screened.wmv</a>

If the link don't work...oh well, I'll try something else.

Link didn't work for me. Try re-posting the link.

I don't officiate girls games(so my opinion might not be consistent with what is or is not called) even though the rules are the same...but, in a boys NFHS game I got a "no call".

Now the depth may be different in "real life"...but, from what I can see on the video...probably a good no call.

First look at the play, I like illegal screen. The screener did not give the player enought time and distance to adjust to screen set out of sight. On more looks, I stick with my call. First look and angle of play, illegal screen.

I think its an illegal screen.

I have illegal screen. The Screener did not allow a normal step will setting the back screen.

How did you get the link to work?

Thanks for the input so far. The official said she had plenty of time to avoid the screen and called a foul on blue.

I argued it was a blind screen from behind and she only had one step.

But, we now have the advantage of slo-mo.....

I didn't do anything tjones, somehow it's just not working for you?

How many steps does she need?

One step. I don't think when gold set her screen, she allowed blue for her normal step. When gold was set, blue was in the process of her step.

Certainly not a foul on blue...I would probably go with a no-call and at some point in the near future talk to that gold player about setting better screens...but no way is that a foul on blue.

First off, if you want this officiated closely, you will have to give up a foul call here and there as the official will be looking at the floor instead of the play.

I have no whistle on this play in regular time.

Oops! (I deleted a line here concerning the coach's understanding of a blind screen. After reading the coaches later response it made this line moot.)

I don't even think she had a step. Either way, I wouldn't make the call on blue, and if I made a call we would be going the other way.

No call or illegal screen....


...definitely not a foul on blue.

Looks like gold screener #14 shifted laterally but allowed a step, albeit a small one. As gold #30 started to drive, blue #40 closed the gap quickly at the point of impact. I go with a no call in real time, which was my gut after watching it the first time.

I also have a no call in my game. While there was a bump, the girl did not try to fight through it. While the screener did get her feet down and was not moving when the contact occurred, the way she hopped into that position at the last moment would lead me to call an illegal screen, if I called anything.

Just my opinion.

no call here

i thought the rule regarding 1 step was for blind screens away from the ball. i didnt think time or distance was necessary for on ball screens? i probably am wrong.

This is an Illegal screen all the way!

This is the definition of a blind screen - the screener came from outside the periferal vision of the moving defender and jumped into place while the defender was moving toward her. the contact looks to occur as the defender is putting her foot back on the floor from her step, and the screener takes a dive. see the referenced rule below. there is more than just the one step guidline in the rule.


fouls and penalties
Section 6 Contact Art 3
a player who screens shall not -
c. take a position so close to a moving opponent that this opponent cannot aviod contact by stopping or changing direction. The speed of the player to be screened will determine the posisition ... etc.

You are incorrect. time and distance are always required unless the player being screened has the ball. And I doubt that is the case....that would be guarding, not screening.

That's the right rule reference, but now I'm confused. In your previous post, you said "she only had one step". Now, you say she wasn't allowed her step. Whichever it is will determine the "right" ruling -- and mabe the calling official missed it -- s/he didn't have the advantage of the replay.

Seems pretty clear to me that the screener did not give the defender a step to avoid the contact. We're going "that way".

Yup.
Bob, that's what I typed.....boy did that come out wrong at 7 am.

Blue was using her "one step" as the screen was set. And yes, slo mo has it's advantages, maybe I can upload it at full speed when I get home tonight and let you guys look at game speed.

But also what I am hearing (in the responses) is "no call" or "illegal screen". At what point (what has to happen) for the "no call" to change to "illegal screen"?

For all the "illegal screen" responses, if #40 blue goes thru gold in this clip, is it still an illegal screen?

You all must not be watching the same video....:confused:

The defender has a step and a half (slide steps, so she wasn't going that fast) prior to contact, screener is set, defender had ample time to stop or adjust. The ball handler set the defender up properly, the screener was set prior to contact, and contact wasn't initiated by the screener. It was close enough that I would have no called the play, but the screener was fine, IMO.

I agree. You're watching a different video. :)

That is for sure because that clearly isn't what happened .

I think if you expand the screen you will see that the screeners feet land on the ground from her jump while the defender is moving. therefore the derfender did not have the opportunity to avoid contact per the rule cite above which clearly makes this an illegal screen.

Run at full speed it looks even more blatant because you can't tell if the sccreener is even on the floor.

You're absolutely 100% correct....... We must be watching 2 different videos. I stand on my previous comment to the OP and agree with the above post by (OHBREF???)..

The link worked just fine.........Good Screen

the link did your mind isn't
look up the rule on contact redarding screens again read it all the way through then come back and look at the video
the screener doesn' give the defender a chance to avoid contact when setting the screen Time and distance are not specified in art 3 section c they are based on the speed of the play period.
and there is no way that this defender could have avoided contact on this screen. :(

I think that you need to look up the rule. You don't seem to understand it. The call is </b>not</b> based on the speed of the play <b>only</b>. It doesn't matter what speed the player being screened is moving at if the screener gives that player 2 normal steps. That <b>IS</b> a legal screen.

NFHS rule 10-6-3(c)-- "The speed of the player to be screened will determine where the screener may take his/her stationary position. <b>The position will vary and may be one to two normal steps or strides from the opponent</b>."</i>

Also see NFHS case book play 10.6.3SitD. That's time and distance.

Our Turn
 

CoachP, why don't you coach your girls properly. Whoever is guarding 14 gold should be out there to pick-up 30 after the screen.:p
22 gold looks wide open on the block, who is not coaching post play defense? :p Not to mention 20 gold looks wide open trailing the play.:p

:D

Thanks, JR!
 

I thought it was just me. Everyone was talking like the defender was running full speed, and the screener cross body blocked her. The screener came down and planted in enough time, didn't throw a shoulder or forearm, and allowed the defender to run into her. The screener did what a screener is supposed to do.

My coaching point for the day is: 'Had the defender's teammate informed her of the screen she could have avoided it.' ;)

My officiating point for this post is 'Had the defender's teammate informed her of the screen once the screener was stationary, she could not have avoided it.'

The screener has to be stationary and give the defender time to avoid the screen. That didn't happen. If a teammate had told her that there was a screener moving with her, then she could've avoided it. But the screener has to stop AND then give the defender that step.

in the real world this is a NO-CALL -- the amount of contact and how it was directed doesnt seem like little suzy will be setting that screen against that player anytime soon.

but besides the screen looked legal

Sam.....Touche' ;)

It was an OOB play and 14 was the inbounder. We play M2M, but on OOB under the basket, we zone, w/o guarding the inbounder. 14 gold lobbed to past the 3 point arc to 30 gold.

#40 our "big man freshman" was under the basket to start off and saw the lob and tried to steal. When gold got possesion, she was stuck guarding the ball. Blue #12 ( a senior who did NOT call out the screen) was then saddled with #22 gold.

We sent gold to the line 38 times that game...homer refs....:p

I hope that JR is reading this thread because I am going to request his opinion on my post because he has been at this even longer that I have.

1) The video appears to be at less than regular speed. With that in mind, A2 set a legal screen against B1 who is guarding A1.

2) Any ruling I give will be the same for NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, and FIBA.

3) NFHS R4-S40-A1 states: A screen is legal action by a player who, without causing contact, delays or prevents an opponent from reaching a desired position.

4) The phrase "without causing contact" refers to illegal contact by the player being screened.

5) Based upon what I saw on the video, I would have ruled that A2 set a legal screen and the contact by B1 was not a foul. Why, you ask is B1's contact not a foul? NFHS R4-S19-A1 states: A person foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A person foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead. NOTE: Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant or is committed by or an airborner shooter. While B1's contact with A2 caused A2 to fall down, notice that B1 stopped as soon as she made contact with A2; B1 did not move through A2.

6) On a personal note, I do not believe an official ever has a "no call." A "no call" means that an official saw something illegal and decided not to penalize it. Either nothing illegal happened or something illegal happened and it must be penalized.

MTD, Sr.

Sorry Mark...but, a "no call" to me means "I got nuthin'"...nothing more, nothing less.

Fwiw, Mark, I finally got the video to play. I thought that it was a legal screen also, and it was properly no-called(:D ) The screener had the feet down and gave a step, and the player being screened stopped on contact.

I also agree with Rookie Dude on the "no call" terminology. That's pretty much standard official speak amongst us gals.

I cannot see how anyone can call this a foul. The screen was stationary and the screener looked like they took two steps before any contact. This is a classic no call. Basketball is a contact sport. There is going to sometimes be contact.

Peace

You are right, this is a personal note. I will still use the terminology because it fits the description.

Peace

Was the white sweatband legal? Because then it has to be a foul (just like stepping on the out of bound line is always a block!)

Also I was trying to see the lead official. He is in position to call the on the ball, but it doesn't look like he has the defense (screen). This is an easy call if you are refing the defense. If you only see the girl go to the floor it is a difficult call!

I know you were kidding, but..... why wouldn't a white sweatband be legal?

If four other players on her team were wearing blue? Or maybe it's too big, or maybe....

I looked at it about 10 times and the slow mo basically tells me it was more like two steps, i didn't think it was one step. Other than the screen being behind her I would go with no call, then I also think there was a little academy award on the fall. SO I go with not call.. and in most cases the less experienced officials will blow the whistle and go with a illegal screen. JMO

Sweatband!! What sweatband? I could care less about the color of sweatbands. I know that is a terrible attitude to take, but the Rules Committee members just have way too much time on their hands.

MTD, Sr.

At first you didn't think it was one step, but after looking at it 10 times in slow motion you decided it was "more" like 2 steps and you came to the conclusion that the less experienced official, in a real live game, with a split second to make a call will blow the whistle and go with an illegal screen. So in essence your saying that the "experience" comes with watching plays 10+ times at slow motion? :rolleyes:

Many of us have a no-call, but if some of us did have a call or have to get a call(during live action) we probably can go either way and the debate in this thread just about says so. Unfortunately some of us less experienced officials don't have the luxury of looking at the call 10+ times in slow mo to come up with a call. In live action, this would probably would've been a tough call, and for you to assume that if one makes the I/S call he's less expereinced is asinine.

sick em JR sick em

I make a comment about being "lax" regarding the fashion police stuff and get a -- "rules are rules" lecture from JR (jurassic that is).

Sr. whats your secret to the free pass?

I'm quite sure that Mark knows and follows the appropriate rules. You? I'm <b>never</b> sure of that.:)

JR:

I let Daryl "The Preacher" Long to handle the sweatbands. :D

MTD, Sr.

Joe, don't bite my head, That is why I said after 10 times. If it were live action It would have gone any of three ways, no call, illegal screen or a charge. I made a joke of it as a less expereince official. That would be a tough call for anyone. especially at that level..

Is that because he's a man of the cloth?:)

Oh man, that's bad.

Good morning to you too, Scrappy Doo.

I never thouhgt of it that way before. Daryl hasn't read this thread lately, I will have to tell him to start reading it from the sweatbands on.

MTD, Sr.