Walton / Nantz's point - 6 fouls
 

Should NFHS and NCAA go to 6 fouls because there are 3 officials?

Discuss

any suggestion by Bill walton should be ignored -- in fact since he suggested 6 fouls we SHOULD go to 4 because that would probably make more sense

Every year a point of emphasis is rough play. Going to 6 fouls would only encourage rough play imo.

billy packer had a take on this (i believe it is one of his more ridiculous statements)

"i don't know why a player should have to sit no matter how many fouls they have, maybe just add some kind of bonus for that player's fouls when they are over a number"

this was mid 1st half of the championship game

Here's anovel idea - stop fouling, then you owuldn't need a 6th foul. :p

Dunovan or Donovan?
 

Billy Packer can't even pronounce Billy Donovan's name correctly. I'm trying to figure out who Billy DUNovan is?:eek:

NBA - 48 Minute game, 6 fouls. I foul per 8 minutes of play.

NCAA - 40 minutes, 5 fouls. I foul per 8 minutes of play.

NFHS - 32 Minutes, 5 fouls. I foul per 6:24 of play.

If the Federation wants to cut back on rough play they could drop the fouls to 4 wich would allign themsleves with the other levels of play with 1 foul allowed per 8 minutes of the game.

In this great logic he made reference to the fact that players in other sports do not foul out. Hmmmmm........Integrate fundamental concepts from other sports into basketball...Brilliant!!! Let's give 'em all bats, Billy! That should cut down on the hand checking!

Good break down! I never thought of fouls as per minute.

Nantz seemed to think that this idea did indeed have some merit, but for this unique reason. He said something about the third set of eyes on the court needing to somehow justify its presence, and therefore, paraphrasing now, calling some cheap ones just to hear the sound of ones own whistle. Could someone possibly explain to him that adding the third whistle was intended to improve the quality, not the quantity, of calls that are made. Is this not like what the cops say about sitting out on the road in large numbers? This is not to give more tickets, it is to prevent more infractions. Having said all this, does anyone have any data on the average number of fouls in NCAA games, comparing 2 whistle and 3 whistle?

Ref Magazine did a story last year on 2 vs. 3-man in NFHS games (Iowa vs. Illinois). Average was 1 more foul called in the 3-man game.

I see a P.O.E. next year about flopping. Saw a ton of it this year in NCAA games. It doesn't seem to work yet it's taught everywhere. Letting out a yell or moan when hit is an automatic no-call, although sometimes the kids get run over anyway. Need to find a balance.

When I was coaching I expected my players to commit fouls. I told them if they didn't have 3 or 4 fouls at the end of the game, they weren't playing hard enough.

Giving the players a 6th foul would be the wrong direction for players, for sure.

There is no need to go to six fouls. However, some officials -- at all levels from high school through major Division I -- need to learn to keep the stars in the game. In both the men's and women's Final Fours, there have been too many players in foul trouble, oftentimes getting hit with ticky tack fouls. If light to moderate contact does not create an advantage or disadvantage -- like the ridiculous holding foul on Georgetown's Hibbert when Ohio State was clearly going to get the rebound anyway -- then the officials really should pass on blowing the whistle.

Are you serious?

Are you an official?

That's the kind of statement that comes from fans, not officials. If you are an official, you need to learn that "keeping the stars in the game" goes against our training.

That's complete doodoo!

Quote AuLEAD:" The Big East Conference said today it would seek permission from the National Collegiate Athletic Association to permit players to accumulate six fouls, rather than five, before being forced out of a game.

The Big East Conference said today it would seek permission from the National Collegiate Athletic Association to permit players to accumulate six fouls, rather than five, before being forced out of a game.

The six-foul rule was approved by a vote of the league's coaches, a spokeswoman, Chris Plonsky, said.

The coaches rejected a proposed rule change that would have allowed players fouled in the act of shooting a 3-point basket to shoot three free throws instead of two, Plonsky said.

The Boston College coach, Jim O'Brien, who voted against the changes, said, ''The lesser teams work hard trying to get the other team's big men out of the game and now this just increases the better team's chances.''

The N.C.A.A. this year said it would give individual conferences the option of adopting the rules changes. Permission to use the rule is ''usually a formality,'' Plonsky said.

If approved, the six-foul rule would apply to conference games and the Big East tournament. It could be used in nonconference games involving a Big East team with the approval of both coaches. The rule would not be used in the N.C.A.A. tournament. "

Interesting decision in this Aug 10,1989 News Quote (especially the denial of three shot foul) which reflects the big east urban inside muscle game bias that existed more in the past than present. I was glad to hear John Wooden quoted this weekend that the most important change NCAA should stem increased contact/aggression (unfortunately Wooden is swimming uphill on this one cause the muscle game is good for tv). I am not a ref but have been lurking on your site and have learned tons. Following this subject line, I thought the 'style' of calls in second half GTown v. UNC hurt Carolina. Sorry for throwing too much into this first post.

Back to the original post...I'm all for adding one extra allowed foul, but only in overtime, and only with the the fouled team retaining possession. :)

Really? Then why is it that every longtime, experienced official who has mentored me -- all the way up to guys who have officiated NCAA Tournament games -- have told me that this is good practice?

The fact is that the NCAA is in complete agreement with Wooden. POE's over the last 10 years have always included comments about rough play. The NCAA rule-makers want "the muscle game" to be kept under control. It's up to the officials to make the calls on a consistent basis over the course of the entire season.

It's a good practice to <b>favor</b> one ballplayer over another? It's a good practice to have a two-tiered officiating system? It's a good practice to have one set of rules for the stars and a completely different set of rules for the riffraff?

Every longtime, experienced official who has mentored you, and that includes anybody that <b>supposedly</b> has officiated NCAA tournament games also, is completely full of doodoo too then. That's absolutely freaking ridiculous.

Was there anything in those NCAA POE's saying that they don't apply to the stars?

What are you suggesting, exactly? What are you prepared to do to "keep the stars in the game"?

Nobody can keep stars in the game if the stars want to beat the crap out of each other. You can't ignore fouls or rough play. You can't ignore obvious contact that gives an advantage.

If there are two players in the vicinity of the foul AND you could call the foul on either one of them AND you know that one of them has 3 fouls, then I can see giving it to the other one.

But I'm not ignoring an obvious foul by the big guy just because he has 3 fouls.

I agree that you don't favor one player over another, but it is a good practice to know who the best player is on the floor and be aware when they are in foul trouble. As far as moving to 6 fouls, that's crap. 5 is just right.

Could you explain that in a little more detail?

If you don't <b>favor</b> them, then what do you do <b>differently</b> for them?

You are right, in a way it is definitely favoring a player and early in my career I was totally against it. As I've moved on to better games, I understand that you need to be aware of the better players and if they have 4, the 5th foul better be, without a doubt, a 5th foul. Of course, all 5 fouls on everyone should be, without a doubt, a foul.

If you are consistent with your calls then it shouldn't matter. If you called a foul on a hand check on their "best player' in the first quarter then the "best player" better adjust or expect to get called for the same thing in the 4th quarter when they have 4 fouls.

Ahh, 8 minute quarters...the good ol' days...:cool:

My reality is that I'm not calling a hand check on Maya Moore, 60 feet from the basket for a handcheck in the 4th quarter for her 5th foul. Yes it's a foul, but the crowd didn't pay their $5 or $10 dollars to see me, they came to see the players, and IMHO to put the star of game on the bench for a handcheck in the 4th game that may decide the outcome of the game just doesn't sit well with me and it probably won't sit well with my assignor as well.

I don't need a POE for this. I'm not having that in my games. That will be an automatic defensive foul when you start that mess. If I'm looking at a no-call, and you yell or moan and hit the deck, automatic defensive foul. That will put an end to that. If you let it go on, things tend to get worse.

I think college could go to 6 fouls because at this level we are marketing the players. More playing time might be the different in a contract to the pro's. We certainly don't want a talent like Oden having to sit the entire 1st half because of two quick fouls. Also, the game is called a little bit tighter in the NCAA then in the NBA, and when you get into the tournament, it's one and done. I think 6 fouls for college is a good idea.

Exactly <b>what</b> defensive call are you going to make?

Pass interference. Offsides. Encroachment. :D

Exactly. <b> <b/>

Block! Everytime unless I got a clear offensive foul. That puts an end to it too. Remember, you only get 5 and you just pick up 2 for flopping. You be headed to the bench and I send message don't flop in my games. Flopping is okay, it's the yelling afterwards that pi$$es me off.

Do you know what a "flop" is?

Flopping is a T or a no-call. Every time I no-called it last year, if the coach said anything it was to his player.
I walked up to one player and warned him after a particularly obvious one. I said, "I know you think we've missed some calls, but don't let me catch you flopping again."
He nodded his head, said, "OK," and didn't flop the rest of the game.

I don't call collegiate and I have great respect for those of you who do, but to a lesser extent you get the same mentality at the HS level...little Johnny needs to play the whole game so he can get a scholarship to Duke, or Kansas, or wherever. Is it possible that many have forgotten basketball is a TEAM sport?

Part of what makes basketball the great sport that it is...is the strategy involved. So Oden picks up two quick fouls and sits the rest of the first half, the TEAM and it's COACH work strategy around that issue and win the game. I wanted Ohio State to win last night and I couldn't help notice that Oden stayed in most of the first half and was looking pretty tired by half time...and they lost despite him being in the game!

I know there are those who disagree, but I think collegiate level basketball is the highest level. The NBA is all about $$ and it makes it seem more like professional wrestling to me. I'm not taking anything away from NBA athletes because there are some that are truly amazing, but I'd rather watch college ball everytime. JMO, of course! :)

Maybe that was part of the officials' strategy to help Florida win. Keep Oden in, it'll wear him out because he's not used to playing that much.

That's BS - why do you care what the crowd wants? Your job is solely to manage the game and not entertain the fans. IMO, if the hand check is clearly placing the offsensive player in an disadantage, then a call must be made. ,

Who cares - and why does it piss you off? Every players are allowed to express their emotion. Why should we allow a player to yell or scream on a power dunk and not let a defensive player who "flop" scream?

He's dumb for listening to you then. Every player is entitle a spot on the court and "FaLLING on the Ground" does not justify a foul or a T. And what if the offensive player did initial the contact?

I agree. 6 fouls in college = higher scoring. Higher scoring = more people watching it. More people watching it = higher revunue. They are finding more opp. to make more $$$ out of the college students.

Do you <b>ever</b> read a rule book?

You don't have a clue what a "flop" is either.

Funny, I thought we, as officials at all levels of basketball, were there to enforce the rules of the game of basketball not market the players.

Here's a hint. Read through rule 10 where it talks about technical fouls. Flopping is a technical foul for trying to influence an officials call. It's specifically mentioned.

And if the offensive player initials the contact, I'm calling a T on him for bringing a pen onto the court.

There. I fixed it for you.

That's BS too - just because a player is falling on the floor, it does not mean he/she is trying to influence a call (unless he/she screams 'FOUL' at your face). Unless the rule book define what a flop is, I don't think there's anyway a flop should be deemed a "T". What if the defensive player has poor footwork, felt on the floor but were able to distract an offensive player from scoring. How can you penalize a player for distracting a player?

IF A DEFENSIVE PLAYER IS PLAYING DEFENSIVE WITH HIS/HER HANDS UP, YOU CAN ARGUE THAT HE/SHE IS "PURPOSELY DIVERTING AN OPPIONENT'S ATTENTION BY WAVING THE HANDS NEAR THE OPPONENT'S EYES FOR EXPRESS PURPOSE OF OBSTRUCTING THE VISION SO THAT HE/SHE CANNOT SEE." If you want to play God, you can alway find an excuse to "T" someone up. But IMO some rules are just lame.

Please define "flop" in the NFHS rule book - Thanks!!!

Mr Official for CA, when you see a defender flop (intentionally falling down to fake being fouled, regardless of what spot on the court you think he is entitled to) in the middle of the lane or wherever, what do "you" have?

NOTHING - get up. "OPPS sorry ref, poor footwork!"

Ok.. now you have A2 falling over poor footwork player who intentionally fell to the floor to induce a call from the official, now what do you have? Or better yet, A1 coming down then falls with all 250 lbs of himself on to said "intentionally fallling down to induce a charge call from the official player"? You still have nothing, but bodies all over the darn place because you're letting your players in your game that you're required to officiate by rule, to FLOP ALL OVER THE DAMN PLACE! But then again, it's only poor footwork...

Induce a call? I must see it to determine whether he/she is inducing a call. Sorry, I am unable to answer such question as I must view the play to determine what I should call, or not. What would you call in this scenario?

It's not the play that I'm talking about.. I'm moreless talking about a player flopping, which you think is a stupid rule. If the player intentionally falls to the ground to induce a charge call without any contact from the offensive player, and all you have is get up swift foot. I think this could present major problems like the scenario i previously described and that's probably what the FED was trying to prevent when the wrote the flop rule and its penalty.

I'm almost certain that a nfhs POE a few years ago was "flopping". Yet never defined if I recall correctly.

I'm sure some kind soul will go up to their attic to get their old nfhs books to verify.

The fed also had quite a few words to say about "strategic fouls" - both for and against - over the last 3 or 4 yrs but as far as I know they have yet to define "strategic foul".

If you really don't know what a flop is when you see it then you've taken up the wrong sport to officiate.

Yeah...didn't think about that! D@mn officials had it in last night for Ohio State! :D (joking here!!)

As for the OP, how can any serious basketball commentator suggest that an extra foul is needing to "compensate" for the third official on the floor? I'm not sure which one of the announcers last night was the more clueless of the two.

That's pretty stupid, Mwanr1. A clear flop should at least be called a blocking foul, imo, and for players who flop in the lane I'll gladly serve up a T because their next flop in the lane may take out a player's knee. :mad:

From a recent NFHS POE:

<b><u>FLOPPING:</u></b> <i>The defensive player or screener acting as though he or she has been charged by an opponent, when in fact he or she has not been, definitely has an impact on the game. It is detrimental to the best interests of basketball. The "actor" wants to create the false impression that he or she has been fouled in the charging/guarding situation, or while he or she is screening, when in fact <b>there is no contact or incidental contact</b>. The "actor" falls to the court as though he or she were knocked down by the force of the contact. These actions are designed to have a foul charged to the opponent- a foul not deserved. The "flop" also incites spectators. <b>The rules are in place to deal with such activity and must be enforced.</b> A <b>technical foul</b> is charged to the actor in all cases. Coaches can have a positive impact by appropriately dealing with players who fake being fouled. It is not a part of the game. Officials must penalize the act.</i>

The rule that is in place to deal with flops is NFHS rule 10-3-7(f)--<i>"faking being fouled."</i> It's been in the rule book for many, many years. The NCAA has a similar rule with similar wording.

Thanks JR. I knew you will pull something out of your ***. I just hope ALL Officials will follow what the rule book says and penalize all unsporting conducts (which includes flopping).

So stick with your words and call a T each time you see a defensive player flop. Not to metion flopping is still a judement call - to you it might be a flop, to some it isn't!!! So don't just talk people, next time you see it, then CALL IT!!!

I wonder how many officials have actually called a T on Vlade Divac throughout his career? Does anyone have the #??

You still don't have a clue, do you? Not only didn't you understand whatinthehell a "flop" really is, you obviously don't know how it's usually handled either.

It's a waste of freaking time even trying to explain things to some people.:rolleyes:

I know what a flop is and if in case I do see a flop that's totally non-basketball move, then I will take further action. But not all flops are bad flops. Having a rule that states "flopping = T" is good to protect the refs' interest. But I'm sure most of the officials have not called it more than once or twice throughout their career.

Let me ask you this: an offensive player is making a move to the basket and scream or yell "AHHHHHHH" to try to catch the ref's attention (distort an official's mind and let him/her believe that he/she was hitted on the way to the basket). To some, the offensive player is also inducing a foul call. Should you or should you not call a "T" and penalize the offensive player who is (according to NFHS 10-4-7 f) "faking being fouled?"

In reality, all coaches and players want an extra possession or two to their favor. Basketball isn't always just black and white!!!

There was a post awhile back (Jan??) about a state (MN?) that went with 18m halves for NFHS games.

That is 36 / 5 = 1 foul every 7m 12s.

You're the one who said the player was stupid for listening to me because there was nothing illegal about what he was doing. Now that you've been shown to be wrong, you just dig your heels in. Brilliant!

Nearly every ref of any intelligence will deal with this privately with the player, maybe let the coach in on the secret, and then T afterwards. I've only had to get to a T once, in a YMCA game, when the kid fell backwards and yelled while the ball handler was still 2 feet away from him.

In high school, talking always works.

Wait. You just told us it's not defined so you won't call it.

You must be a troll. Not a good troll. But a troll.

May I recommend.......
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...light=flopping

The "T" is for falling backward or yelling?

I hear that OS's wife calls him that on a pretty regular basis.

College scouts want to know that little Johnny is a player who can adjust to the officiating and who can play well without doing so illegally.

Thanks for the comment!!!

I agree with talking to the coaches. Talking will probably work. Thanks for your comment too!

And thanks for your hugely inconsistent <s>trolls</s> posts.