NCAAA Final

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by earmitage

You say this is an "Official's Forum." Is it associated or linked to any official organization of officials or is it a site where a guy or a group of guys who officiate, either part time or full time, wanted to chat with their buddies, and decided to start a forum?

It is a site started by officials for officials. I have no idea why it was created, but it was created for officials. There is a paid site associated with this board and the rules are set by the owners. This site is to mainly talk rules and officiating situations and philosophies. We are not here to rip on officials without a discussion of a rule or philosophies. If you are fan and you have a legitimate question or want clarification I know myself and others are glad to answer your questions. If you are hear to rip on the officials based on things you will never understand and do not want to understand, it is time to leave right now.

Peace

[earmitage]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you are fan and you have a legitimate question or want clarification I know myself and others are glad to answer your questions.

Peace

Fair enough. Here is one I have wondered about for years. Coach K at Duke for years has chosen to use the charge as a means to draw fouls and prevent opponents from driving too aggressively to the basket. However, it seems the line has been crossed in that too often it has become dangerous for an offensive player to go airborne. The rule, as originally introduced, makes sense. An offensive player should never be allowed to drive over a defender. Shouldn't the benefit of the doubt be given to the offensive player since he is the one most vulnerable? I would love to see more blocking calls made rather than charging calls.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by earmitage

Fair enough. Here is one I have wondered about for years. Coach K at Duke for years has chosen to use the charge as a means to draw fouls and prevent opponents from driving too aggressively to the basket. However, it seems the line has been crossed in that too often it has become dangerous for an offensive player to go airborne. The rule, as originally introduced, makes sense. An offensive player should never be allowed to drive over a defender. Shouldn't the benefit of the doubt be given to the offensive player since he is the one most vulnerable? I would love to see more blocking calls made rather than charging calls.

This is taught at all levels, not just Duke and not just college. The point is to have the offense not run over someone. How about teaching the offense how to shoot a jump shot?

Currently the rule says if the defensive player gets into position before the offensive player leaves the floor, the offense is responsible for the contact. How would you like to see the rule changed?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by earmitage

Fair enough. Here is one I have wondered about for years. Coach K at Duke for years has chosen to use the charge as a means to draw fouls and prevent opponents from driving too aggressively to the basket. However, it seems the line has been crossed in that too often it has become dangerous for an offensive player to go airborne. The rule, as originally introduced, makes sense. An offensive player should never be allowed to drive over a defender. Shouldn't the benefit of the doubt be given to the offensive player since he is the one most vulnerable? I would love to see more blocking calls made rather than charging calls.

Basketball is a contact sport (sometimes a collision sport). If you do not want to run into a player that is standing in your way of the basket, learn to dribble round someone or shoot over them. The rules are not going to change anytime soon if you ask me on this issue. BTW, most players do not want to take a charge. So this is not a major issue.

Peace

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by earmitage

Coach K at Duke for years has chosen to use the charge as a means to draw fouls and prevent opponents from driving too aggressively to the basket.

Excellent strategy. I'm with you so far.

it has become dangerous for an offensive player to go airborne.

It can be dangerous to launch yourself airborne and forward if there's a player in the way, or if a player steps under you while you're airborne. It's less dangerous to simply jump straight up within your own vertical plane. So I would disagree with your generalization, but I agree that certain plays can be dangerous, especially when a defender steps into the shooter's path after the shooter is already airborne.

An offensive player should never be allowed to drive over a defender.

Nonesense. If the offensive player has the hops to jump over a defender, more power to him. No player (offense or defense) should be allowed to push another player and displace him.

Shouldn't the benefit of the doubt be given to the offensive player since he is the one most vulnerable?

No. The rules specifically say (the high school rule is 10-6, the NCAA rule is 10-21) that the dribbler has the greater responsibility in contact situations. This is because the dribbler has to EXPECT to be guarded. Once the dribbler leaves the floor, no player may move into his path. But until he becomes airborne, the ballhandler has the greater responsibility to avoid contact on a legal defender.

I would love to see more blocking calls made rather than charging calls.

Why exactly? If the defender gets to the spot first and is not moving forward when contact occurs -- charge!

[Junker]

Originally Posted by earmitage

Fair enough. Here is one I have wondered about for years. Coach K at Duke for years has chosen to use the charge as a means to draw fouls and prevent opponents from driving too aggressively to the basket. However, it seems the line has been crossed in that too often it has become dangerous for an offensive player to go airborne. The rule, as originally introduced, makes sense. An offensive player should never be allowed to drive over a defender. Shouldn't the benefit of the doubt be given to the offensive player since he is the one most vulnerable? I would love to see more blocking calls made rather than charging calls.

This is a good, legitimate question and you've gotten some good answers. Personally, I like the rules as they are. Playing defense is hard enough without making it more difficult to draw a charge. The key thing to remember is that every player, offensive and defensive have the legal right to their spot on the floor. What determines a block vs. a charge is whether or not the defensive player has established legal guarding position. To put it in overly simplified terms, the player responsible for the contact should get the foul.

[earmitage]

Originally Posted by Junker

This is a good, legitimate question and you've gotten some good answers. Personally, I like the rules as they are. Playing defense is hard enough without making it more difficult to draw a charge. The key thing to remember is that every player, offensive and defensive have the legal right to their spot on the floor. What determines a block vs. a charge is whether or not the defensive player has established legal guarding position. To put it in overly simplified terms, the player responsible for the contact should get the foul.

I agree with you 100%. The player responsible for the contact should get the foul. It appears that a disproportionate number of calls have been made in favor of the defensive player even when the defensive player has NOT established position, imo.

[Junker]

Originally Posted by earmitage

I agree with you 100%. The player responsible for the contact should get the foul. It appears that a disproportionate number of calls have been made in favor of the defensive player even when the defensive player has NOT established position, imo.

You are certainly entitled to that opinion. I can assure you that when you are actually on the floor, things look entirely different. Officials are taught to referee the defense so while you, as a fan are probably watching the ball, the official is watching the defender get into position. Before I was an official, I was very much a fan. I'd sit in the upper deck yelling and screaming about calls. Then, after the first minute of my first game, I realized that it was much different when you are actually out there and I didn't have any idea what I was yelling about.

[earmitage]

Originally Posted by Junker

You are certainly entitled to that opinion. I can assure you that when you are actually on the floor, things look entirely different. Officials are taught to referee the defense so while you, as a fan are probably watching the ball, the official is watching the defender get into position. Before I was an official, I was very much a fan. I'd sit in the upper deck yelling and screaming about calls. Then, after the first minute of my first game, I realized that it was much different when you are actually out there and I didn't have any idea what I was yelling about.

I understand where you are coming from. It can be one of the most difficult plays to call in basketball. When I watch a game, though, I do review it (via DVR) a great deal while the game is going on and in the vast majority of times I would say I get it right the first time. Not all the time but certainly more often than not. Just as all officials are not entirely competent by taking courses and suiting up, not all fans are out to lunch, as some seem to feel on this site. I have played a lot of ball, have received my fair share of accolades in the sport, and even officiated my boys at the lower levels. I have seen good officiating and I have seen atrocious officiating. It comes with the turf. We are all human. What I am getting at though, regarding the correct call on the charge/block issue and so many other intracacies of the game, is the game seems to have somewhat spiraled out of control. I am not putting the blame on the officials as much as I am those who oversee the direction of the game. I know the officials only implement the rules dictated to them.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by earmitage

When I watch a game, though, I do review it (via DVR) a great deal while the game is going on and in the vast majority of times I would say I get it right the first time.

What does this mean?

You sit on the couch with beer in 1 hand and remote in the other mumbling "yep yep, he go that one wrong too" while 'reviewing' the calls and no calls made during a televised games?

How precious.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by earmitage

What I am getting at though, regarding the correct call on the charge/block issue and so many other intracacies of the game, is the game seems to have somewhat spiraled out of control. I am not putting the blame on the officials as much as I am those who oversee the direction of the game. I know the officials only implement the rules dictated to them.

This takes us back to my earlier question. How would you have the rule worded, then?

[Junker]

You sound like a pretty well informed fan. You'll find, around this site, as long as you are asking legitimate questions and considering the responses before you reply, you'll get some pretty good information. You are correct that the game has changed over time. Athletes are bigger and stronger and the powers that be (NCAA administrators, assignors and coaches) do dictate how the game is called. If you want to continue to work in their leagues, you call the game they want. For better or worse, that is the way it is at all levels. A good example is the Oden hanging on the rim thread. I completely understand why he isn't given a T at that level for obviously violating the rule. As a fan and an official not moving up the chain I'd like to see that T called because it is something in the game that I don't think belongs there. Just to show I'm not biased, I think the Florida player that did the little shimmy-dance after he dunked should have gotten a T as well, but then I'm not on that game and the officials that were are there for a reason.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by earmitage

I agree with you 100%. The player responsible for the contact should get the foul. It appears that a disproportionate number of calls have been made in favor of the defensive player even when the defensive player has NOT established position, imo.

How do you define establishing position?

I ask because we've discussed quite a few plays on here recently that have been on national TV, and most have either been extremely close or have been unanimously (among officials here anyway) considered to have been legitimate PC fouls.

In fact, I think the one time there was disagreement here over a nationally televised block/charge call was when the call on the floor was a block, and we pretty much agreed it should have been a charge (also, however, that it was close enough to forgive the block call.

[Adam]

Do you honestly think the officials give a sh!t who the star is? Or do you think the NCAA told them to protect this kid? Sounds like a conspiracy to me.

[earmitage]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Do you honestly think the officials give a sh!t who the star is? Or do you think the NCAA told them to protect this kid? Sounds like a conspiracy to me.

How about trying to give an honest answer rather than be a wise ***? Why didn't they hit him with a T when he was doing chin ups and kicking his shoes into other players' faces?