Alright guys, here's the deal. JV boys game, A is up by 10. I call a foul on a32, at the time i was unaware that it was his 5th. So i'm in the zone reporting, he know's it's his fifth, so as he's leaving he walks by me in the reporting zone he walks by and has the usual choice F*CK word for me. I then blow my whistle, T him. I finish reporting the personal, then report the T. then the scorer tells me that's his 5th then i tell the coach he's now bench personal and DQ'd, i inform A32 he is also DQ'd. My question is, was i correct in not assessing the coach of A an indirect as i had not yet been informed that A had committed 5 fouls, so therefore i could not inform the coach he was bench personal, which is the requirement?
commets??

Tyler

You're half correct (is that possible?) in this situation.

A32 was not yet bench personnel because he becomes bench personell when the coach is informed that A32 is disqualified. If you know, but have not yet told the coach, A32 is still a player, and the indirect T is not charged to the head coach.

I must be missing soemthing here. Was is he half correct?

He was correct in not assesing A's coach with the indirect T, but he did it for the wrong reason. Therefore, half correct.

ok, how am i half correct? I didn't assess the indirect T because i didn't know he had recived 5 fouls, which actually turned out to be 6th. Since i didn't know that he had committed 5 fouls, i didn't inform the coach.
Also, as an aside kinda, in talking with an experienced offical locally, who is just switching over from fiba and ncaa rules to fed, he didn't know if it was possible for a player to recieve 6 fouls, which in issence is really what happend

comments?

[Edited by moose69 on Dec 4th, 2001 at 10:42 PM]

That doesn't make any sense.
 

How is he half wrong? He didn't tell the coach that A32 had 5 fouls because he was still reporting the foul when the kid popped off. He didn't assess an indirect to the coach beause he hadn't notified him. He's asking if this was the correct procedure. It was.

So, again, how is he half wrong?

a player may recieve up to 7 fouls. 5 personal and 2 technical.
situation: player a1 recieves his 5th personal, on his way to the bench he says, "f you." then he recieves a t. during the remainder of the game he stands up and loudly states the officials suck. whack! that = 7. i have never seen this happen but it could. some may say he could get more than 2 t's if he abuses the refs on his way out.
what do you guy's think. i dont think i would ever hand out more than 2 t's to a player. i would refuse to put the ball in play until the coach or administration removed the player. i would let them know if he does not leave his team has to forfeit. this is a very steep penalty with the fhsaa(florida high school athletic association)

You may do that in Florida be we are not allowed to force a player to leave the biulding. You're just asking for trouble, and possibly a lawsuit. If the team decides to remove him, then fine. But I would be extremely careful about forcing a minor to leave a building.

my bad, i should have said the visual confines of the playing area(lockerroom).

Actually this is wrong as well. You can only direct him to the bench, if the coach wants to remove him thats his biz.

Let's put it this way. You make him go to the locker room. He slips in the shower and cracks his gourd open, who are the parents going to come after? You! Why, because you breached the rules.

In the original situation, no indirect T was assessed because the ref had not informed the player that the player was disqualified. All that matters is when the coach is notified that the player is disqualified.

As to fouls on a player, you can have more than seven. Five fouls DQ's the kid - he can't play, but has to sit on the bench. If he has 1 T already, and gets one while on the bench, you can't double disqualify him - he can stay and get a third, fourth, etc. (of course, now they are indirects against the coach).

BTW, in NF rules (may be different by state association) a player can be ordered from the gym, but he/she MUST be accompanied by an adult.

He will have supervision
 

You can get the player to leave when he gets his third T on the bench....cause now the head coach is gonna be able to supervise him in the locker room!!!

Well, just to clarify, that's not what he said. He asked, "My question is, was i correct in not assessing the coach of A an indirect as i had not yet been informed that A had committed 5 fouls, so therefore i could not inform the coach he was bench personal, which is the requirement?

You do not want to eject a kid from the building. If the coach decides to remove him, then it's his choice, not yours. It doesn't matter what the rules say you can do. Trust me on this.

My two cents.
In my mind there is a difference between being disqualified and being ejected. (I dont think the rule book actually distinguishes) A disqualified player to me is one who has played and now picks up his 5th personal foul, and has been DQ'd for the rest of the game.

Once a player picks up a flagrant foul or their second T, they have been ejected. The adults who are ejected leave the floor area. High School players who have been ejected have to stay on the bench (so there is adequate supervision) but they have been ejected. They will not get more than 2T's from me. I cannot find in the book where someone can pick up more than 2 because they have been ejected and are non players at that point. If an ejected player is not giving you problems from the bench area, the team has three choices, get him under control... get his parents or other competent administrator to escort/supervise the player someplace else. ( for me it doesnt necessarily need to be outside the gym... it could be one row back and just sitting with them) or we go home. Ejected players and coaches are not going to make a mockery out of a game and turn it into a circus. By issuing more than 2T's to a player that's exactly what they have done is made the game a circus.

In our state (UT) once a player has been ejected, we most notify the State Association, and the kid sits out at least one game. If he caused problems on the bench and we had to have the coach/administrator/parents take care of it, he might be out more than just one game. It would certainly be in my game report, but I am not going to look dopey by also having to include that I called 4 T's on one kid and caused ten point swing in a game.

There is on formal definition for ejection, only disqualification. Whether from 5 fouls, 2 T's, or a flagrant foul, a player, coach or other bench personnel is disqualified.

The players do not have to stay on the bench. As an official, you can only send them to the bench. However, the coach, if they so choose, may send them out of the gym or to the locker room.


Anyone on the bench is still bench personnel. There is nowhere in the book that limits a player to two T's. We, as officials, can not suggest that the coach should remove them in order for the game for continue. We can only penalize the action with a T, even if it is a 3rd, 4th. We must, for liability reasons, not even suggest that the coach remove the player. Hopefully, they will take that action on their own to avoid more T's.

If the kid is continuing to make trouble, that is all you can do. DQ'd players are still bench personnel. I think the 3rd T should be called. The coach will get the indirect and that will probably be the end of it...the coach doesn't want indirect T's since 3 will get him DQ'd and out of the gym.

Kelvin, by NF rules players are not ejected. They are disqualified. There's nothing in Rules 1-10 or any case plays that states that a player is ejected. You can disqualify him and have him removed from the facility but he's still disqualified, not ejected. (10.5 Situation A)

I agree with you substantially on what the rule book states. However You dont report all disqualified personnel to the State Association. You report the ones who were tossed from the game, (the flagrants and the the 2T's). So I think it maybe more of philosophy on my part to make the distinction. But if you check closely NF does use the term ejection when coaches are sent from the gym (page 61 and 62) players arent ejected anymore since they are not sent out. I also think that in some circumstances NF words things poorly in the name of simplicity or for political correctness so that we do not hurt someone's feelings by ejecting them.
My biggest point was that in response to post I think the maximum number of T's a player and coach can get is two (direct) and that anybosy who wants to give a player their third or fourth T as was suggested is making as much a mockery out of the game as the clown doing it and the officials have stooped to gutter with them. THe rules dont specifically prohibit a referee from calling more than 2 T's on a player but it does specifically allow it. Snce it is not specifically allowed I will not put my self in a situation where the game is a circus, and we are shhoting tons of extra free throws cause a kid is a jerk. They will deal with him.

No argument that coaches can be ejected.

With regards to the state assoication, we, too, have ejections for paperwork purposes and distinction when compared with disqualifications.

I think the actual reason that the NF stays away from using the word "ejection" with regards to players is so that they won't be liable or "sue-albe" if an unknowing official ejects a minor from a gym and the minor is subsequently injured in some way.

bktballref-could you ref. the nc2a rule for ejections of players, i cant seem to find it.

(Last year's references)

4-17 defines DQ player.

10-4.5, 10-6.5, 10-8.5,6,7, 10-11.2,4, 10-15 all discuss EJs

does it say where the player goes, lockerroom or just to the bench?

Yes.

Here are the NCAA rules:

4-20-1 (Ejection):
Ejection is the act of dismissing an individual from participation in a game because of a specific infraction of the rules.

In addition to being disqualified, an individual who is ejected shall leave the playing court and floor area and report to his or her team's locker room until the game is over.

What gets you ejected?
(a) Three technical fouls - 2I/1D, 1I, 2D, 1Int./2I) [10-2-1]
(b) Two direct technical fouls [10-6-4]
(c) A Flagrant Technical foul [10-12-2]
(d) Flagrant Personal foul/Fighting [10-16-3]

There may be more, but this is all I'm going to look for this late at night.