Automatic T worthy?
 

H.S. level coach or player says "That's horrible/terrible" in regards to a call made by you or your partner that doesn't favor their team.

Do you all T em up right away?

How about the same comments on the wreck level?

What are some other phrases that equal an automatic?


Thanks

A comment like that's horrible or terrible. I normally pass on from their angle it may be horrible or terrible. If they stated something like. Ref, you are horrible or terrible. I give them the bizness.


Automatic T's my opinion: Slamming chair/cilpboard down. Commenting that my partner is horrible or terrible

Agreed....and add to this list vulgar or obscene language and gestures. Note that your personal discretion will have to be applied for what you consider to be "vulgar or obscene language."

is it just me but I think slamming a chair down -- ala mr. Knight -- would get an ejection from me -- depends on severity but -- at the HS level IMO its off to the showers.

No.

I do not do "WREAK" ball so I cannot answer that question.

I really hate to use the term automatic. A lot of decisions like this change based on game situation, level, loudness and what happen during the other part of the game. I may address the issue, but not automatically give a T.

Peace

Race - cheating - personal - will get an immediate response.
sometimes the language depends on who heard it?
If you can deal with it quietly it can fit the game managment mode better, but the MF, the F, words can not be dealt with any other way.

I have a new way of dealing with some of it this year.
" ... That one was free the next one is going to cost you"

they know you heard it and they know there will be consequenses -

This is a great post about giving a T. A lot of variables can be going on at the moment so calling something and "automatic T" is a little shortsighted. A coach saying a call was horrible or terrible may be a T, it may also be a time when you can let the coach know he or she needs to coach the players, not us. There are even times when comments like these need to be ignored.

No.

Rec league, I don't do, but if I did...yes I would whack'em.

Appreciate all the feedback. This is a great forum! I'm glad I stumbled across you guys.

Yup, it's a great place to bounce ideas off people and hear other opinions. Some you'll adopt, some you'll consider complete bs (probably stuff I post :D ).

So if I, a white guy, call someone else a cracker that's an automatic T? What if only you and the player hear the F or MF words? I'm not trying to be a smartass, I just think "automatic T's" are too much of a generalization.

You are wise beyond your years.

Bad JR. Bad, bad JR.:D

You <b>had</b> to know that was coming.

I've successfully dealt with the F word without a T before. It was purely a frustration thing, but I heard it a couple times. I happened to be by her bench shortly after that and asked the coach to deal with it. He thanked me, and I didn't have a problem the rest of the game.

I agree that many Ts require your judgement and are defintiely not automatic Ts, like "that's horrible." But there are some definite clear cut automatics.

I should probably specify -
calling me an MF'er or an FU is going to get you lit up. that one really doesn't matter who else heard it.

Now that I think about it you are right on the other items they are not automatic.

That was the point I was trying to get at. The more I officiate, the less I talk about absolutes and automatics, but then I consitently have the most technicals on my HS crew.

With just those words and nothing else (i.e. handwave, etc.):

Coach - No.
Player - Doubtful.

Comment made after I called a jump ball in a reckless league game, on a guy who whined all game long: "This MF'er is terrible!" Partner didn't move to whack, so I whack 'em. Disappointed that my partner didn't get him, since he was two feet away, but oh well.

One rule of thumb I have for reckless league ball: I don't really talk or discuss calls, and if they over-react to calls, I give them the Old School Stare of Impending Technical Pain (& free throws) (tm).

Technical Fouls
 

I believe that I copied this, with some editing, from the Tri-City (Washihgton State) Officials Association. You may find it helpful.

Technical Fouls

Top Reasons To Not Give A Technical Foul
1) You can address a coach before it becomes a problem. A quiet word can go a long way in preventing a technical foul.
2) When coaches complain ask yourself, is the call questionable, is the call wrong. If they have a legitimate gripe then allow them some latitude.
3) If you know a coach is upset then move out onto the floor when in front of their bench.
4) Warnings can be very effective in preventing situations from escalating. Don't tolerate a lot before a warning.
5) Lend and ear. Coaches like to be heard. If you ignore them then they become more frustrated and are more likely to lose control.
6) If an assistant is out of line, then you can speak to the head coach and ask them to help you out.
7) If a player is out of line then let the coach know. Tell them you've warned their player. That way if you do give a technical foul, then the coach isn't surprised. Most good coaches will speak to the player first.
8) If you have had a rough day and know your fuse is short, keep that in mind before you do anything rash. Ask yourself, does the situation come under one of the top ten reasons to give a technical foul.

Top Reasons To Give A Technical Foul
Knowing when the right time to call a technical foul is half the battle. There are many different factors to consider, when deciding to give a technical foul. Generally, there are three areas of coach's behavior that need attention: when a coach makes it personal, when a coach draws attention to himself or herself, and when a coach's complaints are persistent.

Some technical fouls are easy. They are black and white situations that leave little room for negotiations:
1) Using profanity or language that is abusive, vulgar, or obscene.
2) If a coach questions your integrity.
3) Inciting an undesirable crowd reaction.
4) If you are being embarrassed.
5) If coach or player has been warned and has not heeded the warning.
6) Leaving the confines of the coaching box and complaining.
7) A coach demonstrates displeasure with your partner and their back is turned.

Other technical fouls are not as black and white. In some situations a warning may be appropriate before the technical foul is given:
8) A coach or player continually demonstrates signals or asks for calls.
9) If they have interfered with the game or your concentration then they have usually gone too far.
10) If giving a technical will help give structure back to the game and if it will have a calming effect on things.

Top Ways To Give A Technical Foul
1) Calling a technical foul should be no different then calling any other violation. Maintain a pleasant attitude,have poise and presence. Don't embarrass the coach by being demonstrative.
2) Explain technical fouls on players to coaches.
4) Never look at a coach when you give a technical foul.
3) Call the technical foul. Report it to the table and leave the area. Find your partner.
4) Explanations, it needed should be done by partner.
5) After technical fouls, get the ball in play immediately.
6) Make them earn the second technical foul. Don't be reluctant to give the second trechnical foul if it is warranted.

If they overreact to calls, why give them the free throws? I'd give the FTs to their opponents. :D

I don't have a problem using automatic. If you toss something in anger or frustration, that's an automatic T. If you charge at me or come onto the court being demonstrative in any way, that's an automatic T. Personal comments are pretty much automatic T's, unless its at the VERY end of the game, its obvious the coach wants you to serve him up so he can blame you, and its out of ear shot of virtually everyone else.

What do you mean toss? A player is frustrated with missing a shot, slams the ball hard and catches it. Is that an automatic. The second half of you post says that personal comments are pretty automatic, unless it's at the very end of the game and out of ear shot. How is that using automatic? Yes I know I'm being nit-picky, but as I stated a few times on this thread. Officials neeed to be careful using the term "automatic T".

The only way I use "automatic" for judgment Ts anymore is to make the situation so specific as to render the word "automatic" meaningless.
Example: If a coach screams at me, "G$d D@mmit, Moron, you're the worst official I've ever seen and I'm going to slash your tires before you have a chance to change your shoes," I'd say that's an automatic T.
There are no "magic words" for me, though.

Not a bad idea for working wreck leagues. Don't talk to the players after a call and rotate on the shooting fouls so that you're not standing there taking all the heat under the basket after the call. Had one the other day where we had a hard foul on the big players, defense got his arm over player shoulder as offense was going up and it looked bad. Because the game was close offense wanted intentional. Since we hadn't had any issues up to that point, partner ruled just a shooting foul. On my way to administer the FT's point guard had moved to the backcourt and was screaming that's an intentional! I stopped right at the top of the key and looked him right in the face, and gave him the impression that if you say another word, it will be a T. I didn't say one word to him. I just stopped and looked at him. He immediately shut up! I then went and administor the FT's. I'm not saying this is the way to do it on all occasions, but at the end of the day, I felt good that I got thru that situation without having to enforce a T. This player knew my look and that I was not gonna have anymore of that. He also knew that my look at him directly was his warning. I like to say mission accomplished.

Now, I got one yesterday that I'm going to apologize to you right now before describing it. But I also want to get your opinion on my thoughts here. Late in a wreck league playoff game, I had a player give me a lot of grief after a call I made on his big player. I think he went over the limit but I didn't T him. The call was on another player on his team and I just went over to the table to report. He was like the coach/floor general on his team. I didn't want to T him because I didn't want to ruin my good relationship with him. Former CBA player and I have a lot of respect for him. He went on an on. That was a BS shot, how you gonna give my player a foul on that BS shot!

After the game, they won, and as I was walking out. We passed each other and I told him I should have given you a T on that one incident, and he said yea, I know and I appreciate you not doing that. You know I didn't mean nothing by it, I was just excited in the moment. I told him, if you ever do me like that again, it will be a T. We shook hands and went our way. Interested in hearing your thoughts on this situation and if you have ever been in a situation like this before, and how did you handle it? Since I was at the table I was not in a position to give him the stare or tell him that's enough, but I heard every word. I had the good angel bad angel going back and forward in my head. You should T him for that! Naw, let's just get thru the game! That's several BS's in a row, that's too many, T his a$$! Naw, let's just get the ball back in play so we can get this over with.

Lah me....didn't want to <b>ruin</b> a <b>relationship</b>.....

You're officiating a game, not hosting the Dr. Phil show.

If you ever want to develop into a real live, honest-to-goodness official some day, you're going to have to grow some balls. It's that simple.

As usual though, feel free to come up with some lame excuse why you <b>shouldn't</b> have called a "T".

On the issue of "Automatic T's":

Playoff game, HS Varsity Girls, the game is well into the blowout stage. B coach, his team down by 30+, starts accusing the officials of extreme bias ("you're only calling our fouls", "that's horrible", "why don't you just give them the game?") He was assessed a T, followed shortly by a second (while the first was being reported, I believe). He left the gym without incident and escaped the humiliation of coaching the rest of a game he expected to win.

I was in the stands with other officials and several evaluators. One of the evaluators, after making a complimentary remark about the handling of the coach, offered another tactic. He suggested that, after the first T, the second official could have wandered by and informed the coach that he would not be given a second T and therefore would not be given an easy escape from horror of witnessing his girls' embarrassing loss. If he wanted to give up on his team and leave, he would have to do so on his own volition. Otherwise, I (the official), who cannot leave and must suffer through the remaining 15:00 of the game, would expect him to suffer as well.

Personally, I like it. It's cheeky :cool: and punitive :mad:, and does not allow a selfish coach to escape when his team cannot.

Automatic T's
 

A few lines that will always get a T from me:

"Hey ref, is it hard to blow the whistle with your head so far up your @$$?" I seldom let that one go by.

"You are to reffing what Michael Jackson is to child welfare!" I don't let that go either.

And, the most automatic T in my book, when a coach yells out:

<H2>"HEY, OLD SCHOOL!"</H2>

Yeah, that last one is universally accepted as a T around here. JMO.

BillyMac, one thing I can say about you, is you consistently have the LONGEST posts of anyone. I hope you type about 200 WPM as much as you write!! :D

I'm not personally a fan of this, but wouldn't think less of an official who is able to successfully pull it off.
You might be setting yourself up for some serious crap the rest of the game; stuff that seriously deserves a T and sets a horrible example. And, you've just told the coach that he's going to be able to get away with it.
If you can get it to work, fine; but I'd be leary of teaching newer officials this.

This is one of those comebacks that gets brought up on here from time to time. For me, it's one of those things that sounds really great in my head, but I would never use on the court.

Besides - if you do something to earn a T and I'm reffing, everyone expects that the T will be called . . . and I hate to disappoint!

Personally, I think that logic is right up there with Old School's post. It's just another excuse <b>not</b> to call a "T". You're not only letting that clown completely get away with his crap, but you're also setting up the next bunch of officials that get him to have to deal with nonsense like that. Why should they have to clean up somebody else's mess?

Put up with that crap for another 15 minutes without doing something about it? Well, I sureasheck wouldn't! Just take care of bidness. Deal with what happens and don't try to overthink these types of plays.

Unspoken Truth
 

No excuses this time. I didn't take care of business and it bothered me. A friend of mined once told me after a game we worked. I like to sleep at night. I never lost any sleep calling a deserved T, but if I failed to call a deserved T, I would be up all night kicking myself for not.

I wonder if this is not one of those issues that officials don't like to talk about openly. I mean there's some serious influential people in the basketball world. You go T up the wrong coach and that could effect your ability to keep a strong schedule. If you put too much emphasis on getting a DI schedule for example, you want to stay away from stuff like this and try to keep all relationships positive. This is a double edge sword for the official. Damn if you do, damn if you don't. I bet there are many coaches that know this.

Everything an official does is Damned if you do Damned if you don't -
So that argument has little creedence with me.

I personally have less respect for someone who doesn't take care of business than someone who does.

But there are Politics everywhere, however the assignors will (at the upper levels) reward you for taking care of business when necessay and punish you if you do not.

At the lower levels well you just need to take care of business and deal with the consequenses. If the coaches control the league that mush I you are more likely to get black balled for your regular calls than you are for a T.

I'm not sure what I would say if my evaluator or assignor gave me this suggestion. Tell a coach no more T's for him the rest of the game? Regardless of language, conduct toward officials, conduct towards opposing coaches/players? The coach could sure make the last 15:00 of the game absolutely miserable for the officiating team. What about indirects...do you give everyone on the bench a pass as well? Even assistant coaches?

I think I'd have to tell my evaluator/assignor to give me whatever negative critique or feedback he wanted, I wouldn't do it and I'd have major issues backing a partner that did it without discussing it with me first.

He couldn't have been serious about this suggestion, could he? :confused:

Only in the most sarcastic sense of the word "serious."

I wouldn't tell a coach he wasn't getting a second. I may try to ignore some antics if I can when I know the coach wants to go, but if it gets too bad, you just have to dump them.

Cause you're "OLD SCHOOL!" - most players respect older refs more than the younger ones, especially rec ball

As a coach who's suffered lopsided losses, I assure you I have never been embarrassed by my team or not wanted to be with them in a difficult situation. If you think "making" me stay with them is "punitive," you're wrong. You might want to be aware of that when you use the above tactic.

If I show you up or try to embarrass you, I deserve a T. What do you deserve for hoping that I suffer embarrassment or trying to engineer a situation that you think embarrasses me?

It frightens me that an evaluator suggested such a BS move.

I've seen officials joke to the effect of, "If I have to stay here and finish this, so do you." However, I normally put this kind of joke into the same category as the jokes about blaming your partner for overtime. I don't take them seriously, because no official I know would honestly put up with this kind of behavior as some means of "punishing" the coach.

If the coach wants to make a statement to his players by not watching the rest of the game, he can turn the game over to his assistant and walk away on his own volition. That'll say a lot more than getting booted for being an a$$.

As K-Bach later stated, the evaluator was not serious about it, and was most likely either joking with the guys he was sitting with, or he was testing them to see what they thought of this "approach."