In the case book/rule book, there are many examples regarding A failing to return to the court in a timely manner following a TO. (Put the ball on the floor and start counting).

What is acceptable when B delays and A is ready? Do you just hand the ball in to A while B is in the huddle trying to decide what to say on the count of three? Do you record a warning in the book for delay without letting A get the cheap hoop? Do you just continue trying to drag the delinquent team out or the huddle? etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Thanks for your suggestions.

I guarantee that if you give the ball to A and they get the cheap hoop, B won't do it again. I also guarantee you'll get yelled at by coach B.

But then, so what?!

We consistently follow this procedure and we don't run into any problems.

At the second horn, blow your whistle.

Mentallly count two seconds.

Blow your whistle again.

Put the ball on the floor, if the offense is delaying.

Hand the ball to the thrower, if the defense is delaying.

As Mark said, you'll only have to do it once! :)


[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 3rd, 2001 at 03:19 PM]

I guess I don't understand why you would do this at the first horn. In NFHS, I thought the first horn was given 15 seconds (full) or 10 seconds (30) before the time they are to be on the court ready to play (2nd horn).

My bad. it should read the second or last horn. :(

i would give b a delay of game warning. they do it again delay of game tech. giving a team a cheap score is just.................cheap! try to do every thing possible to keep the game fair. would you give team A the ball in a tie game with 3 sec. on the clock 4th qtr. if yes and i was your partner i would blow my whistle and stop you!

You bet I would!! If B delays, it's not me that lost the game for them!! Is it fair for B to get warning after help after grace when A is following the rules and remaining in the spirit and flow of the game? Sure, A is getting an advantage, but it's not an illegal advantage. In fact, it's an illegal advantage for B if the referee bends the rules so that B can finish its now illegal huddle. If my partner blew the whistle and stopped me, I'd have words to my assignor later!

it is not bending the rules it is managing the game. give them the cheap shot without warning in any league i am in and you will not have to worry about talking to the supervisor.........he will talk to you!

Managing the game is giving B every opportunity participate in a fair and reasonable way. It is what BktballRef said: blowing the whistle, hollering "White Ball!!" blowing again and all those other things we do. After all that, you can't say the "cheap shot" is without warning. The Resuming Play Procedure doesn't give any room at all to let them off with a warning. If A is there and ready, and the ref has followed the procedure, what with two horns, and two whistles, it's B's clear choice, not my bad attitude.

First, under both NFHS and NCAA rules, the resume play protocols are to be used to put the ball back into play after time outs. They apply only for putting the ball back into play after a timeout.

Second, there are only three official delay of game warnings, and they are only for games played under NFHS rules. These delay of game warnings are found in R4-S46-A1,
A2, and A3. None of these delay of game warnings have anything to do with the resume play protocols for after a timeout. After a timeout, the game is resumes per these protocols and there are no delay of game warnings involved.

Third, we will have a very good pregame discussion about the correct way to handle the resume play protocols. And that we are going to follow them and not do something that is incorrect per the rules.

Fourth, giving the ball to Team A for a throw-in when Team B is delaying their return to the court after a timeout is not a cheap score. Some preventative officiating is required in your pregame with the captains; the captains are ultimately responsible for getting their teams out of the huddle after a timeout, and you have to let them know that you expect them to break their huddles on the first horn because the ball is going to be put into play after the second horn. Good officiating dictates that if the team is breaking is coming out onto the floor during the second horn you use good common sense about putting the ball into play. But if the second horn sounds and the administering official sounds his whistle and Team B is still in its huddle and A1 is ready to make the throw-in, put the ball into play. Team B will let it happen only once. The real problem is when you have not had any problems with the teams for the entire game and then you have a team delay after a timeout when the score is tied and only three seconds left in the game. You really want to go that extra second or two before you put the ball into play after the second horn.

Fifth, even when the score is tied with three seconds left in the game, there comes a time when you have grab the tail by the tail and face the situation. Which means if you have gone the extra second and Team B is still in the huddle then put the ball in play. If the ball is not put into play then you award Team B for violating the rules and that puts Team A at a disadvantage.

Sixth, if I have gone the extra second and you blow the whistle, after I have put the ball at the disposable of Team A for the throw-in, to prevent Team A from getting a cheap score, you are are going to find yourself in big trouble with me after the game. Nothing steams me more when I am ready to put the ball into play and my partner will whistle me to stop play because the opposing coach tells a player to report into the game. I am ready to put the ball into play and the substitute is just getting up from the bench. This is not allowed under the rules but far too many officials delay the ball from becoming live because they want to appear to be a nice guy and let the substitute into the game.

We get ourselves into trouble when we attempt to use common sense without using the rules as our guide.

i would still stop you.

It is bending the rules. If you have to bend rules, then you do not know how to manage the game. Right from the beginning of the game, you have to make sure that the teams know that they will not be allowed to circumvent the rules and you will see that they will comply. John Cloughty has always said that there is no such thing as a gut call; either you make the call or you do not. If you want to bend the rules to allow a team to circumvent the rules, then maybe officiating is not the avocation for you.

I'm with rainmaker, BBRef and Mark on this one -- it happpended to me last night in a boys JV game. Team A is up by 15-16 points throughout most of the game. In 2nd half, they started delaying coming back from TO. Told coach/assistant/captains that they were to be back ready to play before 2nd horn. My partner also told them. Team B was always back and ready to play. When it happened again, I blew my whistle, counted 2 seconds, put the ball on the floor and started 5 second count. At about the 4 second count, Team A realized that the ball was on the floor and came running out. Tweet! Too late, 5 second count. No problems the rest of the game. Were we consistent - yes. Was it preventative officiating - I think so (we did warn them). Did Team A finally learn -- you bet! My partner and I discussed a similar situation in pre-game, so we were both aware of what we would do.

Then he doesn't no much about the game of basketball. :(

So, if A delays in returning from the TO, according to 7-5-1, we put the ball on the floor and begin the 5 second count.

But when B delays, we wait and wait and wait, and then if they don't come to play, give them a delay oif game warning. Sorry crew, I don't mean to offend you but that's horsesh*t and it smells just that bad.

There's nothing cheap about it. B gets 3 warnings before you hand the ball to A. Let me review what I posted.

First horn sounds.
The official at B's bench says "First horn, A's ball!" to B's bench. That's B's first warning.

At the second horn, blow your whistle.
That's B's second warning.

Mentallly count two seconds.

Blow your whistle again.
That's B's third warning.

Hand the ball to the thrower, if the defense is delaying.
That's their last warning. I guarantee that won't need another warning.

My supervisor will be talking to me if I don't follow this procedure, as it is required by our NCHSAA handbook.

Thanks for suggestions
 

Thanks all for the suggestions. This goes with my gut for what I should do (hand the ball in). I feel this is something that does need some consistency from official to official, though. Else, one might be known as "That butthead official who hands the ball in before we're on the floor". As the posts mentioned, though, there is ample warning...thanks again.

i understand what you guys are saying about the resuming play procedure. federation is the only basketball institute that observes this rule(except fiba, i dont know). i might even use it early in the game or early in the 4th qtr. however i would avoid it at game ending/winning situations. my opinon is that the rule is archaic and will eventually be deleted from the book. i would not want to be the reason a team won or lost a game even though it is a technicality. i consider this play similar to making a bad call at the end and the game won on undeserving freethrows. forgive me for coming off as an *** earlier.

I know sometimes when you do things like this, the coaches and even ADs will get totally upset and even go so far as writing the State about it (I personally have not had this happen to me). What is great, is that the State will normally ask for your take on the situation and usually they will tell the coach and AD to read the rule book and make a rules meeting occassionaly.
This kind of situcation happens a lot in Jr. High games, where coaches are trying to getthere players to remember how to play the game right. It can be frustrating for them, almost like adding insult to injury, but they need to be expected to follow the rules like the players do. I will remember what you guys have said about how to do the resumption of play procedure. Thanks!
Matt

In general, I am willing to bend to a certain extent, but the situation you describe here, Mark, is a pet peeve for me, too. Especially since it is usually the coach of the team that is way ahead, and he is just workin' the system. In fact, I was spoken to by an evaluator for letting a sub in after a time out. My partner had actually "beckoned" but I was the Referee and my evaluator thought I should have signalled the sub back to the table and not let my partner make this decision. The evaluator's point was that the rules about subs in rlation to time-outs are quite clear and there was plenty of opportunity for the subs to come in. Why now? Clearly a control and manipulation issue.

ARCHAIC!!! You have got to be kidding!

There has to be some structure in place to get make the ball live and to put the ball back into play. If you remove the resuming play procedure from the rules book, then the only recourse is to charge a technical foul for delay of game to the team who is not ready to play immediately after the second horn. It will not matter whether the offending team is the team making the throw-in or the defensive team. Which rule would you like to see in place: the resuming play procedure or a delay of game technical foul.

If you drop the resuming play procedure from the rules book the coaches will delay and delay and delay and there are officials will never call the technical foul because they do not have the intestinal fortitude to take the bull by the tail and face the situation.

Mark, crew is new. We're still working on him, so give us a little time. ;)

why have the nba and nc2a eliminated this procedure from the rule books? any ideas!

Assuming that you are referring to the Resuming Play Procedure for putting the ball into play after timeouts, the NCAA has not eliminated it from its rules. The NFHS and the NCAA use the same procedures to resume play after a timeout. The NBA/WNBA did not have to eliminate the rule because it never had the rule.

my bad you are correct nc2a does have the rule. though i would avoid it.

My two cents
 

I'm not a big fan of "surprising" everyone with obscure rules which result in a turnover or even worse...an easy score for the offense. However, the rule is there and can be used. So if you're having a problem with a team getting out of the time out, talk to the coach and explain the consequences (opposing coach gets the same courtesy) for the next offense. Should he decide to push the envelope (which is unlikely) then he gives you no choice but to use resumption of play and there is no "surprise".

Crew, I agree with your philosophy late in the game. I too would have a difficult time applying this rule. You want to do everything you can to be invisible and if you hand the ball to the offense for an easy score late in a close game...you're going to take some heat from many different sources. Find another way!

Here's an interesting way to look at it. We already know the losing team wants to cause you bodily harm, but what about the winning team? Do you think they could take any satisfaction in winning the game without opposition. What a shameful way to win a game!

Re: My two cents
 

What's shameful about winning by following the rules? What's the shame in scoring an easy basket, because the defense is choosing not to play? There is not any force or false authority by the ref here. It is very simply and strictly the defender's choice. How is it fair to the team that is following the rules to have to wait and wait because the ref is trying to be invisible instead of doing his/her job?

This whole debate baffles me... Why bother with having timed time-outs if we're not going to enforce them? Why not just call a time out and then talk until everyone is ready to go? If one team is taking advantage (the team that is staying in time out too long), is that advantage legal? NO!! Then why ignore it or justify it? Why not penalize it?

jeffref,
your 2 cents has been worth more than everyone elses dollar on this post. you understand.

We do not have the luxury of deciding which rules we are going to enforce and which rules we are not going to enforce. I grant you that the resuming play procedure has to be enforced from the start of the game. If you have been doing your job then you should have no problem enforcing at the end of the game. If it results in a team scoring a "cheap" basket because it has played by the rules and its opponent has not, so be it. If an official does not want to enforce this rule at the end of the game after enforcing all game long then maybe the official should find a different line of work.