Backing in
 

Hi. Question from a non-referee here. Watching NCAA tournament I (sometimes) see low post dribbler back in to defender with some displacement, but I can't recall any whistles. What exactly is the rule? How much displacement is allowed before a foul is called? What tell-tale signs are there that a defender is flopping in order to try to draw a foul? Thanks. I'll hang up and listen...

That loud grunt and a body on the floor. kind of sounds like a backhand in womens tennis match! that is 99 out of a 100 times going to be a flop.

The rules are not different but the emphasis is different from Men's to Women's - Womens specifically uses displacement as a definition and point of emphasis.
If that kind of back down happens in a womens game there is going to be some kind of call. Usually the defender will put the double arm bar on the dribbler or fail to get legal guarding position by putting the knee up between the offensive players legs before the charge is called.
the call revolves around the defender having legal guarding position and there is only one way to establish it, but many ways to lose once you have it.
I think it should be similar in the mens game but I will let someone working in the mens end deal with that.

42.73% is the rule in NF.

9 times out of ten, the defender backs away rather than letting himself get pushed down. If he holds his ground, then he's more likely to get the charge when he gets pushed backward.
To catch a flop, the only way I know for sure is to see when player starts falling. Otherwise, you have to guess at the amount of force used in comparison with the velocity of the fall. It's not perfect, so if the defender at least waits until there's contact, I'm more likely than not to have a call.

In metric that would be a whole number, 41% exactly :D So, why don't you switch?

Wow...2 out of 4 usefull answers (that's 50% for you refs)...is that some kind of record?

After obtaining LGP, isn't the defender allowed to go backwards and still have LGP?

Does that, then, decrease his likelyhood of getting a charge call then?

LGP prevents a blocking call, it doesn't necessarily force a PC call.
It decreases but doesn't go away completely. If the defender is stepping backwards, then he's voluntarily giving up his position. This is only a general rule, however, and is not definitive nor absolute.
If the ball handler starts backing in, and the defender falls down, it's usually a foul; unless something makes me think the defender flopped.

To quote an old television commercial - "I'd rather fight than switch". ;)

Gee - sorry. I guess we'll all have to take a pay cut. BTW - you misspelled "useful". Is that some kind of record? :p

Sitch:
A1 has just rec'd the ball in the post facing away from basket. B1 is already in LGP behind him. A1 starts bumping/backing B1 towards the hoop. B1 keeps taking the bumps but maintaining LGP. (B1 is giving up position, but not LGP).
A1 scores, no fouls.

So, is what you are saying, there is no PC foul UNLESS A1 physically knocks B1 "out of" LGP?

I think I'm finally comprehending....!

Honestly, it's a judgment call. If I think A1 knocks B1 backwards, I'll call the push. The problem is, when B1 is stepping backwards, it's hard to tell if it was the push that knocked him back.
I'm more likely than not to call this, because at the high school level I work, the defenders are good at standing their ground. I'm only explaining how what looks like a back down can sometimes be no-called on games we see on television.

Actually your response made it 2 out of 5 (that's 40% for you <s>monkeys</s>...errr...fans)

This is an excellent question. I see this all the time also and wonder why it almost never gets called. In fact there is a ton of aggressive contact under the boards with the big post players that rarely gets called. Many times during the battles for rebounding position the bigger guy will “maneuver” the other guy out to gain a better position for the rebound. This is obviously a push, but hardly ever gets called unless it’s really harsh or there is some holding. What guidelines are used to determine when enough is enough with the pushing and jostling under the boards?

These are two different situations handled differently.
on the rebounding there is a lot of contact true, but does that contact displace and result in an advantage for the player initiatiing the contact.
A lot of what you see is a big player just out jumping another big player for the ball.
As long as the player on the outside doesn't initiate the contact and displace the inside player to get the ball. it is just inadvertant contact. It doesn't mean anything as long as everyone is going straight up and we have no advantage it is all good.

here is a question for you
If an offensive player jumps forward toward the basket to take a jump shot and the defender is between him and the basket jumps forward to defend against the shot and their is minimal torso and hip contact (with no contact above the shoulders) as the offensive player makes the jump shot who is the foul on?

Classic laymens mistake, the 2 that were not useful to you were not addressing your question. That does not mean the officials were incorrect, they just weren't addressing what you wanted them to address.
However that does make you 1 for 2 (50%).

Yup, they were obviously watching off ball.

This exact scenario (offensive post backing down a defender toward the basket) has bothered me during the last few weeks of the NCAA tourney....It has begun to drive me crazy when a defender is called for a foul by body bumping, using an arm bar, or putting two hands on the offensive post player after he receives the ball and the offensive post player is allowed to back down the defender into the lane. Case in point - Florida 54 Butler 54 3:21 (2nd half)...Horford catches ball in post; 1st power dribble/bump (nothing); 2nd power dribble/bump (should have been PC); 3rd power dribble/bump/shot (defender realizes no call coming - tries flop and reaches on shot - foul and 1 FT).

IMHO, if your gonna call the defensive foul - THEN YOU HAVE TO CALL A PC ON THE OFFENSIVE POST PLAYER FOR DISPLACEMENT! It gives an unfair advantage to call one without the other...

I believe we will see a POE next year from Hank Nichols and the NCAA regarding displacement by a post player with the ball.

1st Power dribble/bump - Defender is standing with two arms on Horford's back and his knee up between Horford's legs (no LGP), 2nd power dribble/bump - Still no established LGP,
3rd power dribble/bump/shot defender tries flop and reaches on shot - foul and 1 FT

There whould be a lot more PC fouls - if the defender established LGP first and most defenders do not do that - while the are bumping and grinding for position they are all up in the offensive players back and leaning on them when they recieve the pass, then they do not establish LGP so they earn that PC foul.

I understand the rebounding contact. But what I’m referring to is the contact prior to rebounding. Situation: A2 and B2 are post player under the board. A1 shoots a perimeter shot. A2 and B2 are both facing the basket with A2 just behind and off the outer shoulder of B2. As the shot goes though the air B2 brings out just a little bit of elbow and start pushing A2 out and away from the basket. He’s not elbowing A2 or anything like that. Just back pushing. This ends up giving B2 a much better advantage at getting the rebound than A2. It seems that who ever is the strongest wins the position. I see this all the time but rarely gets called. By definition in the rules, I believe that this should be a foul. However, it appears that this is a one of those times when the refs are to “lighten up” on the contact rules as to let the big boys bump a little. I certainly don’t know this for sure. Just learning.
To answer you question, I believe we have a personal foul on the defender IF the contact disrupted the shot because he moved toward the shooter. You stated “minimal torso and hip contact (with no contact above the shoulders)”. So I would think that no disadvantage was gained, therefore a no-call. IMO.

Just watch Horford in the post for Florida. He commits an offensive foul all the time on his post ups when he backs down his opponent. It's a good example.

I will not disagree that this "could" be a foul but now we are into another area of officiating that the public (and some officials) are not aware of. The patient whistle - seeing the whole play, then put air in your whistle.
A2 and B2 are jostling for rebounding posistion on the bench side of the basket where the shot came from B2 pushes a little harder on A2 and gets a slightly better postion for the rebound - but the ball hits the rim and goes long to the opposite side of the basket ? Do you call a foul?

Same scenario - except this time B2 backs A2 out about 10ft from where he was when the shot was taken and the ball clanks on the rim and comes right to B2? Do you call a foul?

last weekend while doing an AAU game training a younger official we had this play: A1's Shot goes up from three point area Free throw line extended on the strong side (three man crew so you have lead and trail on this side of the floor) the young guy is the C on the other side.
A3 and B3 are jostling on the weak side B3 goes up and forward clearly displacing A3 whistle blows as the ball bounds over the top of the backboard and out of play. Was there a foul ? do you put a whistle on it?

Now you are reading and considering these plays as they unfold in front of you on the screen, add several other players in your primary area of coverage and full speed. then you make the call.

Correct even though there was contact, the contact did not constitute a foul.

"Basketball is a contact sport - all contact is not a foul - all fouls involve contact, it the job of the official to determine which is which."
Carroll Cosby

1)Yes
2)Sometimes.

Weren't expecting that answer to #2, were you?

Wasn't what the proctor was looking for - but it is not wrong - we'll give you half credit. :p

But it is good that Vinsik sees that also, because two officials can see the same play different ways. :confused:
or different ways at different times :confused:

Even though we wear it it ins't all black and white :rolleyes:

Well, I'll give you <b>no</b> credit for not understanding at all what I'm talking about.

Others will.

...foggy... not sure of what game is was but could have been Florida... anyway, the defender fouled out on what appeared to be exactly what you describe... of course, the TV view is not the same as the official's view but I was perplexed at what the defender could possibly have done wrong? Anyone else remember that and can help me understand what would turn that play into a foul on the defender?

1st Power dribble/bump - Defender is standing with two arms on Horford's back and his knee up between Horford's legs (no LGP), 2nd power dribble/bump - Still no established LGP,
3rd power dribble/bump/shot defender tries flop and reaches on shot - foul and 1 FT

Watch the post play a little more closely...there is a reason why defenders use their arms, legs, bodies, etc. to "wall off" a post player with the ball - it's because those are the only means they have to hold their ground. Once the ball is entered into the post, the VAST MAJORITY of contact is initiated by the offensive player.

When contact is initiated that creates an advantage, it MUST be called a foul. Traditionally, the "hand-checks", illegal screens, block/charge-type plays are called rather easily. The contact that occurs in the post (both before and after the ball is entered) has not been called in the same manner as other types of contact - probably because it IS more difficult to officiate. The most recent POE regarding contact in the post has primarily dealt with defensive players restricting an offensive players' movement. I predict that the next POE regarding post play contact will call for enforcement of an offensive player displacing the defender during a power dribble/move to the basket.

Actually, when Padgett's not around (and OS and a couple of other trolls) our percentages go way up. Even Padgett has his uses, though. He's great at fashion shows, if there are fishnets in use.

I"m not sure about the play you're referring to, but I do know that often the camera angle is 90% of the problem for us couch-view officials. Many times, when they show the same play from a different angle on replay, it's very, very clear what happened, or what the ref saw.

With regard to the OP, I think the answer is that the defender is usually giving ground. I don't understand why they do that. But it seems clear that unless the defender holds his ground, there isn't gonna be a call. It's gotta be a pretty clear shove or arm.

That was the Florida game where the poor defender got run over by Horford. In the last 5 minutes of that game (with Butler), he made no effort to go around or over his defender. He could have easily had 3 PC's in that stretch. If you notice on the video after each of those plays, he was flexing his arms as if to say, "I'm going through you and there's nothing you can do because the officials aren't calling it."

I'm wondering why the defender is not on equal footing with the offensive player? If the offense goes through a defender's space, it's a foul. If a defender goes through the offensive player's space, it's a foul. The 2 should not be looked at differently, even though they clearly are by the majority of officials.

Juulie - I just got some new ones. They're orange and glow in the dark! :eek:

Now - wasn't that a useful answer?

Thanks everyone...your responses were very usefulll.