2007 Nit

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by NewNCref

that depends on how much you trust your shot clock operator to get it right.

How much you should trust your shot clock operator? Not at all! That's why I said if you KNOW it started when control was established, etc. . .

If you have definite knowledge that the clock is an accurate measure of the time in the backcourt, then use it. If not, live and die with the Trail's count.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

This is not something that will get you fired. If you know that the shot clock started when the offensive team gained control, and you know that the shot clock now reads 25, then 10 seconds have elapsed.

Why should the violation be ignored simply because the Trail has a slow count? This is actually pre-gamed by many officials in my area.

That's a big "if". What IF the first to touch the ball on the inbound pass was the defense and the offense didn't gain control for 1-2 more seconds?

My question. On a throw-in after change of possession does the shot clock start when a) the throw-in ends or b) when an offensive player touches the ball inbounds? On a backcourt throw-in after change of possession when does the 10-second count start when a) the throw-in ends or when b) an offensive player touches the ball inbounds?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

That's a big "if". What IF the first to touch the ball on the inbound pass was the defense and the offense didn't gain control for 1-2 more seconds?

See post directly above yours

My question. On a throw-in after change of possession does the shot clock start . . . ?

On any throw-in, the shot clock starts when the ball is legally touched inbounds.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by NewNCref

I'm not actually sure about the shot clock deal, but now that you mention it, that could have been it.

This is exactly what happened. The shot clock hit 25 while Vermont was still in the backcourt, and the center made the call. It was pretty close, as the ball was passed into the frontcourt right at the time his whistle sounded, and the clock was still at 25 when stopped.

Vermont coach wasn't happy, but then again he shouldn't have been. It was a great game to be at...Vermont was fun to watch and well-coached with excellent fundamentals. K-State was just too athletic and physical for them when they turned up the defense. Huggins won this game for K-State.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Huggins won this game for K-State.

You mean the coach decided the game? How unfortunate.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

See post directly above yours

On any throw-in, the shot clock starts when the ball is legally touched inbounds.

So my line of thinking is that maybe the defense made the initial touch which would start the shot clock but not the 10-second count.

Even if the defense didn't touch the ball this is a play the Trail has to live and die with. If the shot clock is sitting at 22-23 seconds then Trail will have to do some explaining, but as a Slot I'm not going to come in and make a 10-second call.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So my line of thinking is that maybe the defense made the initial touch which would start the shot clock but not the 10-second count.

Well, if there's any "maybe" involved, then (as I said) the Trail's count is all that matters. But if you KNOW that control was established immediately and you also KNOW that the clock started correctly, then it's a violation after 10 seconds and somebody has to call it.

as a Slot I'm not going to come in and make a 10-second call.

Well, if we're working together, I'd come and save your butt by making the call so that you didn't have "some explaining to do". I hope you'd do the same for me.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Well, if we're working together, I'd come and save your butt by making the call so that you didn't have "some explaining to do". I hope you'd do the same for me.

That's something I have to think on. I have a couple of buddies (D1 officials) who would not want that call coming from the Slot. But if you were the 'R' and that's the way you pre-gamed it I wouldn't have any problem being a team member.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I have a couple of buddies (D1 officials) who would not want that call coming from the Slot.

I guess I would ask "Why not?" Why does it matter where the call comes from? Yes, the Trail has the count, but the shot clock is going to be more accurate. So "why not" use it if you know that it was started correctly?

[NewNCref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I guess I would ask "Why not?" Why does it matter where the call comes from? Yes, the Trail has the count, but the shot clock is going to be more accurate. So "why not" use it if you know that it was started correctly?

Here's my one "why not" that I can think of. What if the officials count is slightly quicker than it should be. If the Trail calls a 10-second violation, then is the Center going to get him to change his call to an IW?
My thought is that at all times the Center could be trying to check the clock and then subtract ten seconds, but that's not his job. The ten-second count by the Trail should be the only count. IMO, it looks worse to have the Center running across the court with the ten-second violation while the Trail is still counting.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by NewNCref

Here's my one "why not" that I can think of. What if the officials count is slightly quicker than it should be. If the Trail calls a 10-second violation, then is the Center going to get him to change his call to an IW?

If the Center knows that the shot clock started properly, then I don't see any reason that the C can't give that info to the Trail. Kind of like a kicked out of bounds call. If the T insists that his count is right (perhaps because the clock was late to start), then he can go with his call. But if you KNOW the clock was operating properly and started at the correct time, it seems to me that this is relevant information to give your partner.

1) My thought is that at all times the Center could be trying to check the clock and then subtract ten seconds, but that's not his job.

2) The ten-second count by the Trail should be the only count.

3) IMO, it looks worse to have the Center running across the court with the ten-second violation while the Trail is still counting.

1) It's also not the C's job to make an out of bounds call on the endline. But if I happen to KNOW that the Lead got it wrong, I'm going to offer some information.

2) But it's not the only count. There's a little thing called the shot clock that's also keeping count. Why not use it?

3) Why in the world would the C come "running across the court" to make a simple 10-second violation call? Just make the call like any other.

[NewNCref]

I think the argument that you're trying to make is the same one as calling out of your area. You shouldn't be worrying about it, but if you notice it, you have to call it. And I agree with that, if the Center absolutely knows there's been a violation, then it should be called. What I'm saying is I don't think I would advocate this. The Trail can see the shot clock, and has the count, so I'm thinking just let Trail take it, and Center focus more on contact coming down the court.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by NewNCref

I think the argument that you're trying to make is the same one as calling out of your area. You shouldn't be worrying about it, but if you notice it, you have to call it. And I agree with that, if the Center absolutely knows there's been a violation, then it should be called. What I'm saying is I don't think I would advocate this. The Trail can see the shot clock, and has the count, so I'm thinking just let Trail take it, and Center focus more on contact coming down the court.

If that is the way that you feel about any call out of your area, then I believe that you are mistaken.

The official may not see the whole play or may not have the best angle to see it correctly. So he probably should think "my partner has the covered" and leave it alone.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If the Center knows that the shot clock started properly, then I don't see any reason that the C can't give that info to the Trail. Kind of like a kicked out of bounds call. If the T insists that his count is right (perhaps because the clock was late to start), then he can go with his call. But if you KNOW the clock was operating properly and started at the correct time, it seems to me that this is relevant information to give your partner.

Yeah, seems very innocent and just another run of the mill inadvertent whstle, except...when the C kills the play to tell the T that 10 seconds came off the shot clock the offense gets a fresh new 10 seconds if the T disagrees. Not a can of worms you need to be opening IMO.

IOW this is NOT just another case of the C bringing new information to the T. The C had better be 138% right, and he had better expect the T to agree with him.

[NewNCref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If that is the way that you feel about any call out of your area, then I believe that you are mistaken.

The official may not see the whole play or may not have the best angle to see it correctly. So he probably should think "my partner has the covered" and leave it alone.

That's not the way I feel about any call out of my area. However (and yes, I know this is an extreme example), If I see a player walk up and slap another player in the face, and my partner misses it, I'm going to call it. Believing your partner had a better view and simply not calling it because it's out of your area are two seperate things.

My post wasn't clear about that, so, that's what I meant. My analogy was that if you absolutely know a violation occurred, you have a duty to call it.