ncaa consistently ignored rule
 

I'm sure that Hank Nickols is ok with this...otherwise the officials would be callng it during this postseason. The rule where if a player goes out of bounds intentionally and then is the first player to touch the ball after returning to the floor is a violation was repeatedly ignored in all of the conference tournaments I was watching the last few days. THe player cutting across the baseline and going out of bounds to use a screen to get open in the other corner for the pass and 3 point attempt was seen over and over. It doesn't really bother me, since all the officials were consistent. My question is why even put the rule in the book if it is not going to ever be enforced. Was there a directive from above, or are all the "big guns" just so used to not calling this that they overlook it every time?

NCAA Rules now
 

Remember the rule only applies when the player that runs out of bounds is the first to touch the ball. The rule is not the same at the HS level where whether they get the ball is an issue. I saw this several times as well, but none of these players got the ball. So it is not a violation.

Peace

I know what you are saying Jeff...but I did see several times where they did receive the pass. That is what made me wonder :confused:

How exactly is "first to touch" defined? I've always wondered this. If they get back inbounds and establish position before the pass is released, are they ok?

They cannot just receive the pass. They have to receive the first pass.

Also to be fair this is not something that many officials are going out of their way to look for. I am looking more for body contact, not just where their feet are. There are times even in a HS game where they barely step on the line and I pass on a violation. This is after all a judgment call. If the NCAA wants this called, they will show many examples on the NCAA Officiating tape. Then there will be no question how this is to be called.

Peace

If A1 is the player going out of bounds while A2 is holding or dribbling the ball, and A1 is the first player (after returning inbounds) to receive a pass from A2, A1 is the "first to touch". If A2 first passed the ball to A3, who passed to A1, everything is legal.

Rule 9-4-1 says: A player who steps out of bounds under his/her own volition and then becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning the playing court has committed a violation.

1. A violation has not been committed when a player, who steps out of bounds as permitted by Rule 7-5.8a, does not receive the pass along the endline by a teammate and is the first to touch the ball after his or her return to the playing court.

Peace

This rule has always been confusing to me. The endline reference above should be removed as it could occur elsewhere on the court. The same condition could occur on the sideline. In fact, I called one on the sideline on a fast break where A3 ran behind the coach while A1 with the ball continued to push, then A1 pass the ball to A3 who was then 2 full strides back inbounds, received the pass, didn't need to dribble and shot a layup. I reason A3 couldn't be the first to touch after intentionally running out of bounds. Not sure now if I ruled correctly on the play because A1 had the ball. Once he returned back on the court, A1 still had the ball, which now leads me to believe that A1 was the first to touch it once he returned inbounds.

I remember debating this rule at the meeting when they changed it and we couldn't come to a consensus on it's definition. The more we talked about it, the more confusing it got. Really have no idea what the NCAA is trying to accomplish with this one. NFHS did make it clearer. It's a violation the minute you intentionally do it.

I think the end line is used as an example because this is where it is most common to take place. I rarely see a screen set where a player runs out on the sideline.

Peace

What does Rule 7-5.8a say? I don't follow this rule citing. Is it saying that the endlines are to be treated differently then the sidelines?

Thanks in advance for your response!

This rule covers a player making a pass after a made basket.

Not sure why everyone is focusing on just the end line. The end line is used as an example.

Peace

Ok, real life situation -

Player A1 dribbling with the ball at the top of key. Player A2 runs out of bounds on the baseline (let's say one foot in bounds, one foot steps out of bounds for the width of the lane) Players A3 and A4 set a double screen for A2. A1 passes to A2 (A2's clearly back in bounds).

Is this a violation?
Is this what the OP is referencing? If so, I agree that it is never called, at least not against the Texas Longhorns - which I am not going to complain about. Go Horns!

Thanks again!

WHat about the undershirt rule, must match the dominant color of the jersey...I see shirts that are illegal on tv each game....just wondering? Do they not make a big deal out of that....We were told at the NAIA level to make sure they leave and remove the shirt or find one that is legal???

No, it couldn't.

The AR is saying that if A2 goes OOB after a made basket (note that this would be on the end-line), then A2 can return and be the first to receive a pass from A1 without it being a violation.

In order for the player to be the first to touch the ball after returning from out of bounds, the ball must be passed while the player is out of bounds. Otherwise, the player is not the first to touch it inbounds, since the passer is still touching it and is inbounds.

Are you sure this is what you saw?

Where may I find that interpretation in the NCAA rule book?:confused:

This is exactly what has made this rule so confusing to understand. I don't think it's written very cleary when the pass is consider to be the first pass. In my example above, did I get it right or not?

Here's how to call the play, already laid out for everybody.....

<b><u>NCAA Rule 9-4AR181:</u></b>
<i>Team A sets a double screen for A1, who, in attempting to come across the free-throw lane is <b><font color = red>legally</font</b> obstructed by offensive and defensive players so that A1 leaves the playing court under the basket, circles around, <b><font color = red>returns</font></b> to the playing court and then is the <b><font color = red>first to receive the ball</font</b>.
<b><u>RULING</u></b> A violation has been committed by A1 for <b><font color = red>leaving the playing court and then becoming the first player to touch the ball upon return</font></b>.</i>

Note that there is <b>no</b> provision that the ball must be passed while the player is OOB.

Also note that NCAA rule 9-4-1 applies on all endlines and sidelines to any player that leaves under <b>their own volition</b>, i.e. willingly.

And rule 9-4-1(a) as previously cited in this thread is only an <b>exception</b> related to offensive players being legally OOB on their endline after a made basket or FT by the other team. That they can come back in-bounds and receive the <b>throw-in</b> is all R9-4-1(a) is telling you.

That's my understanding of how everything is to be interpreted.

To me, if the ball is in the hands of another player when A1 comes back in bounds, then A1 cannot possibly be the first to touch the ball by definition. To happen, the pass would have to be released prior to A1 establishing position inbounds.
Now, if that's not how it's called, fine. But even the interpretation, as worded, states it this way. Without defining "first to touch" differently, I'm left with my view.

Adam,
JR just cited the A.R. which defines it for you. Your understanding is not correct per the rules.

The NCAA put something out a few years ago that said what bigwhistle wrote in post #6 (A1 to A2 to A3), but I can't recall where that was written--perhaps in an A.R., perhaps it was a bulletin.

Anyway bigwhistle's OP is completely correct. This rule is being completely ignored to the point of why even have it. I've seen numerous examples of it being broken, including a play in the NCAA tournament last year by UCLA.

Hank Nichols needs to take a look at this and provide clear direction or scrap the rule.

I've called it this year, but only once.

I'm a little confused.

Someone please tell me what is correct in these situations:

1. A1 is holding the ball when A2 is out of bounds. A1 releases the ball on a pass, then A2 legally establishes position inbounds, then is the first player to touch. Easy violation.

2. A1 is holding the ball when A2 is out of bounds. A2 legally establishes position in bounds, then A1 (who is the first to touch after A2 is inbounds) releases the ball. A2 is the next to touch. Is this a violation?

3. A1 is holding the ball when A2 is out of bounds. A2 legally establishes position in bounds, then A1 dribbles the ball once, then passes to A2, who is the next to touch. Is this a violation?

I guess my biggest question is this: Wouldn't the first player to touch the ball be the player holding onto the ball when A2 becomes an inbounds player?

IMO, the NCAA means "next" when they say "first." All of the above would be (by rule) violations.

Bob Jenkins is correct all of these are violations under NCAA rules. The player who already has the ball while his teammate is out of bounds doesn't count. Another player must touch the ball in between for the play to be legal. However, as we have said, this violation is routinely being ignored at the D1 level.

I understand that it is ignored and that all those plays are violations, but the rule says it is a violation for being the "first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court."
Whereas part of the A.R. says "is the first to receive the ball."
These have different meanings and should be called in different ways. The play that I mentioned earlier (Play 2 in my post) should not be a violation according to the wording of the rule. There needs to be a stipulation such as "next player" or "second player" or "besides the player who is in control of the ball when the player returns to the court." I know that the people who write the rulebook aren't supposed to be English majors, but I don't think this make sense.

From a competition stand point, why not make it a violation for a player to just leave the floor like NFHS. Let's suppose the player goes out of bounds to make a screen work more effectively so the other team has to switch. The offense then dumps it into the post player who now has a mismatch and they gain an advantage even without the guy who went out of bounds touching the ball. It also makes it much easier to call and takes the guesswork and confusion out of it.

Why would they want to do that? The rule is fine the way it is. The problem is you have people that think everyone should call the game as closely as they would while watching TV. If they were as good as the official working the actual games, then they would be there. I have not seen this called at the HS level as closely as those claim they are doing. No one is complaining. The only people making an issue are a bunch of "rulebook" officials who would not know a real game if it hit them in the face.

BTW, coaches make these rules. Officials have almost nothing to do with what rules the NCAA creates.

Peace