Jim Burr

[Rich]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I wouldn't worry about me coming to steal one of there spots anytime soon either. I don't even know if I will ever even get to work a Div. I game ever.

And as far as Welmer being at the top, I don't know if Gerald Bodreaux hired him this year, but I heard John Guthrie fired him when he was the Supervisor of officials cause he didn't think he could get a play right (don't know if that is entirely true, but I can see it being logical)

Oh, let's hold the SEC assignor up as a great indicator of how good an official Welmer is.

Then let's all laugh out loud.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Oh, let's hold the SEC assignor up as a great indicator of how good an official Welmer is.

Then let's all laugh out loud.

He has sent more guys to the NBA through his umbrella system then you will ever know.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

He has sent more guys to the NBA through his umbrella system then you will ever know.

Some of us don't hold the NBA as the ultimate ideal. Matter of fact, I haven't watched an NBA game in about 5 years.

If I'm turning on an ESPN and seeing Burr/Welmer 5-6 nights a week, it's a good indication that these are the best guys. Commissioners aren't going to put their necks on the line for guys they don't trust. There's an old saying that "you don't get fired for buying IBM." Well, you won't get fired hiring Burr and Welmer. They're too solid and I can't remember a ****storm ever coming down in one of their games.

The only ****storm I remember with a big time, regular official is the Valentine/Knight incident.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Some of us don't hold the NBA as the ultimate ideal. Matter of fact, I haven't watched an NBA game in about 5 years.

If I'm turning on an ESPN and seeing Burr/Welmer 5-6 nights a week, it's a good indication that these are the best guys. Commissioners aren't going to put their necks on the line for guys they don't trust. There's an old saying that "you don't get fired for buying IBM." Well, you won't get fired hiring Burr and Welmer. They're too solid and I can't remember a ****storm ever coming down in one of their games.

The only ****storm I remember with a big time, regular official is the Valentine/Knight incident.

Don't misinterpret what I'm saying now. I think Burr and Welmer are good... at managing the game, but as far as getting plays right they could never touch an NBA official.

Maybe you don't hold NBA refs in such high regard, but I think when you ref the highest level, at the highest stage, with the best athletes in the world and have a 94% accuracy rate that's dang good in my books. You might disagree with that, but I just do not believe that get near that many plays right.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Don't misinterpret what I'm saying now. I think Burr and Welmer are good... at managing the game, but as far as getting plays right they could never touch an NBA official.

Maybe you don't hold NBA refs in such high regard, but I think when you ref the highest level, at the highest stage, with the best athletes in the world and have a 94% accuracy rate that's dang good in my books. You might disagree with that, but I just do not believe that get near that many plays right.

What is right? Every foul call is subjective -- was there advantage/disadvantage to the point where the official decided to call a foul?

I live in Big 10 territory and the officials let the players play. It's a very physical league. How could you possibly say those officials are right? Or wrong?

[tomegun]

Wow, all of this has been going on and I haven't been involved? I have a take on this too! Surprise, surprise!

I wouldn't lump Welmer and Burr together.

Everyone on here should know I don't think much of Welmer. Sure, he hasn't been in many controversial situations. That will NEVER happen as long as he only calls the SUPER DUPER REALLY REALLY REALLY obvious calls. No matter what league it is, he is only going to call the obvious and not very much of those. The Big 10's physical play has nothing to do with it.

Burr is a great official, but he calls all over the court too much. I think he can still get it done, he just calls everything. There are many officials who work D1 and expect a double whistle all the time regardless of where the call is on the court. Not good.

Rich, was Valentine wrong? Are you afraid to make the controversial call? You say Welmer and Burr must be at the top of their game because they get hired. Doesn't the same apply for Valentine? He is in the ACC, SEC and Big 10; he must be doing something right too and I'm sure he's been to more final fours than Welmer.

I think it is funny when someone says an official who is doing D1 basketball is automatically good and right. I mentioned this on another thread; officials are hired and hid all the time. It is a fact. Officials are also hired for different reasons - not only their ability. I can understand our (people on this forum) disdain for fanboys, but to some extent some of us are fanboys too. D1 officials make mistakes and they do not all have equal talent. Just like officials at the high school and JC level, the best officials do not always do the most or best games. Knowing that, some of us sure are drinking some strange Kool-Aid!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Wow, all of this has been going on and I haven't been involved? I have a take on this too! Surprise, surprise!

I wouldn't lump Welmer and Burr together.
Everyone on here should know I don't think much of Welmer. Sure, he hasn't been in many controversial situations. That will NEVER happen as long as he only calls the SUPER DUPER REALLY REALLY REALLY obvious calls. No matter what league it is, he is only going to call the obvious and not very much of those. The Big 10's physical play has nothing to do with it.

Burr is a great official, but he calls all over the court too much. I think he can still get it done, he just calls everything.

Rich, was Valentine wrong? Are you afraid to make the controversial call? You say Welmer and Burr must be at the top of their game because they get hired. Doesn't the same apply for Valentine? He is in the ACC, SEC and Big 10; he must be doing something right too and I'm sure he's been to more final fours than Welmer.

I think it is funny when someone says an official who is doing D1 basketball is automatically good and right. I mentioned this on another thread; officials are hired and hid all the time. It is a fact. Officials are also hired for different reasons - not only their ability. I can understand our (people on this forum) disdain for fanboys, but to some extent some of us are fanboys too. D1 officials make mistakes and they do not all have equal talent. Just like officials at the high school and JC level, the best officials do not always do the most or best games. Knowing that, some of us sure are drinking some strange Kool-Aid!

Read my post again. I never once said that I sided with Knight. I have great respect for Ted Valentine and think him a top official. I just said the only ****storm I remember involving a top official was that one.

I prefer Welmer's officiating style to many others, actually. Then again, I don't like watching a parade to the free throw line. Never have.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Wow, all of this has been going on and I haven't been involved? I have a take on this too! Surprise, surprise!

I wouldn't lump Welmer and Burr together.

Everyone on here should know I don't think much of Welmer. Sure, he hasn't been in many controversial situations. That will NEVER happen as long as he only calls the SUPER DUPER REALLY REALLY REALLY obvious calls. No matter what league it is, he is only going to call the obvious and not very much of those. The Big 10's physical play has nothing to do with it.

Burr is a great official, but he calls all over the court too much. I think he can still get it done, he just calls everything. There are many officials who work D1 and expect a double whistle all the time regardless of where the call is on the court. Not good.

Rich, was Valentine wrong? Are you afraid to make the controversial call? You say Welmer and Burr must be at the top of their game because they get hired. Doesn't the same apply for Valentine? He is in the ACC, SEC and Big 10; he must be doing something right too and I'm sure he's been to more final fours than Welmer.

I think it is funny when someone says an official who is doing D1 basketball is automatically good and right. I mentioned this on another thread; officials are hired and hid all the time. It is a fact. Officials are also hired for different reasons - not only their ability. I can understand our (people on this forum) disdain for fanboys, but to some extent some of us are fanboys too. D1 officials make mistakes and they do not all have equal talent. Just like officials at the high school and JC level, the best officials do not always do the most or best games. Knowing that, some of us sure are drinking some strange Kool-Aid!

Hired for different reasons? Sure. Working 110 games in a year? That guy is doing something right in someone's (actually 9-10 assignors') eyes.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by tomegun

There are many officials who work D1 and expect a double whistle all the time regardless of where the call is on the court. Not good.

If there are many D1 guys who think a double whistle is not only ok but expected, then where do you get off saying it isn't good? There are a lot of calls that happen in a gray area, many many calls/no calls a game. I don't see where double whistles here are a bad thing. As a matter of fact, if there is what a coach thinks is a close call that goes against him, you sure have a lot more ammunition if you had two whistles. IMHO

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

What is right? Every foul call is subjective -- was there advantage/disadvantage to the point where the official decided to call a foul?

I live in Big 10 territory and the officials let the players play. It's a very physical league. How could you possibly say those officials are right? Or wrong?

Watching the game tape afterwards. This is what the officials do in the NBA and I do believe they make more money. If these guys are working every game they can possibly get, they don't have time to review the game before. In the NBA, reviewing the game tape afterwards is apart of their normal routine.

I agree, these guys don't get very many plays right but they are excellent at managing the game and the big ego's. Isn't that what it comes down to, who manages the game the best? This has nothing to do with how good you are. As far as IBM is concerned, you're right, but IBM is no longer the big dog either and the reason why is, they refused to change.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Old School

Watching the game tape afterwards. This is what the officials do in the NBA and I do believe they make more money. If these guys are working every game they can possibly get, they don't have time to review the game before. In the NBA, reviewing the game tape afterwards is apart of their normal routine.

I agree, these guys don't get very many plays right but they are excellent at managing the game and the big ego's. Isn't that what it comes down to, who manages the game the best? This has nothing to do with how good you are. As far as IBM is concerned, you're right, but IBM is no longer the big dog either and the reason why is, they refused to change.

Congrats btaylor64, old school agrees with you. That should tell you something about your opinion is.

[blindmanwalking]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Don't misinterpret what I'm saying now. I think Burr and Welmer are good... at managing the game, but as far as getting plays right they could never touch an NBA official.

Maybe you don't hold NBA refs in such high regard, but I think when you ref the highest level, at the highest stage, with the best athletes in the world and have a 94% accuracy rate that's dang good in my books. You might disagree with that, but I just do not believe that get near that many plays right.

Are you seriously comparing college officials to NBA officials? I'm not knocking the NBA guys because they are calling the game the way they are told to (I assume), however, the blatant rules violations and fouls that are never called puts nearly and college or top high school official above NBA guys IMO. I rarely watch NBA ball for this reason.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by blindmanwalking

Are you seriously comparing college officials to NBA officials? I'm not knocking the NBA guys because they are calling the game the way they are told to (I assume), however, the blatant rules violations and fouls that are never called puts nearly and college or top high school official above NBA guys IMO. I rarely watch NBA ball for this reason.

Hold the phone! What you are missing in your analogy is the players. These are the biggest, strongest, most athletic players in the world. Just being on the court with them is different, way different from HS, and stronger than college. They have to call this game different. Do not ever assume that a HS referee could referee an NBA game. Maybe a college men's official who's on top of his game, but a HS official would not make it. They would be too intimidated by the players.

It's really hard for me to watch NBA ball on TV prior to the playoff's. But refereeing it or being down there on the floor, it's fantastic! The 1st and 2nd round of the NBA playoff's is some very good basketball too. You should tune in there. I watch Phoenix every chance I get, they are a pleasure to watch, what pro ball should be.

[blindmanwalking]

Originally Posted by Old School

Hold the phone! What you are missing in your analogy is the players. These are the biggest, strongest, most athletic players in the world. Just being on the court with them is different, way different from HS, and stronger than college. They have to call this game different. Do not ever assume that a HS referee could referee an NBA game. Maybe a college men's official who's on top of his game, but a HS official would not make it. They would be too intimidated by the players.

It's really hard for me to watch NBA ball on TV prior to the playoff's. But refereeing it or being down there on the floor, it's fantastic! The 1st and 2nd round of the NBA playoff's is some very good basketball too. You should tune in there. I watch Phoenix every chance I get, they are a pleasure to watch, what pro ball should be.

I'm not missing anything in my analogy. If these are the most athletic players in the world they shouldn't have much trouble following the rules. Again, that's likely how NBA officials are told to call the game, I just don't like it. My preference. I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to the game.

I take it you have officiated in the NBA?