Would you have T ed ?

Adam · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 08, 2007, 10:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

I don't know if I would go that far, I think everyone gets the point but you. The official took a DIRECT insult, that's like a direct unprotected body shot in boxing. On the battlefield, that's like getting hit with a bullet and continuing to fight, paving the way for the others.

No, I got the analogy, and words can't describe how inappropriate it is. Taking an insult is nothing like taking a bullet. To even compare the two is insulting to Medal of Honor winners, who did a hell of a lot more than take an insult to get that award.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

By not giving the coach a T, it preserved the integrity of the game, and also the integrity for the C. A double win. I didn't mention that.

You were better off not mentioning it, because it's bogus. He didn't call it because he didn't want to "decide the game." He allowed the coach to question his integrity without consequence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

This guy knocked down two birds with one stone, one no-call. He hits the C with a T and half the parents are going to be piss at him for getting that T so late in a 1 point game. The ones that saw the play would have really been upset b/c the kid didn't get foul, he just fell on the floor. In HS or college, that could've ended his career.

Who cares? It's 10 year old boys. What would happen to a hs coach or a college coach is beyond irrelevant. Making that comment is beyond the pale, it's beyond an emotional outburst. It's a coach using an emotional moment as an excuse to verbally attack an official and accuse him of a personal bias. HS and college coaches know better, so he wouldn't have to worry about it at that level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

It turned out that the team still lost, so preserving that T saved the coaches face with his supporters.

Again with the irrelevant facts. I don't care who wins or loses. The fact that you didn't give a T to a deserving coach doesn't become ok just because he loses the game anyway. I'ts a non sequiter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

Okay, I'll back down on the metal but we got to give him a stripe for that one, he earned it here.

Only in so far as he learned a lesson on how he wants to handle it next time. I'm not going to say every official should call this a T ever time; but I will and every decent official I know personally would as well. The only experienced guys I know who won't are strictly working ms and ymca ball.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

I read somewhere out here where a poster said, sometimes a no call, is the best call!

Apples and oranges. That refers to situations where there's really no advantage on a contact situation. It has nothing at all to do with sportsmanship issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

Being that the team still lost, the no-call becomes even bigger, imo. You see, it would not have changed anything which means it was the best thing to do.

This is just inane. It doesn't mean crap. It only means the official wants to just get his check and go home. (Note, I'm not saying that's why the OP didn't make this call. I'm saying it's how OS's reasoning comes across.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

The game ended normally which shows the protection for the game, which is what everybody wanted to see happen. Calling the T would have sour the normal ending, tainted the winning teams victory, got the coaches all upset with you, now you got a confrontation you might have to deal with, and the coach never swore.

No, the game didn't end normally. It ended with a coach having called a ref's integrity into question without consequence. And I don't give a rat's a$$ if he swore or not here; except that adding an F-bomb might make it flagrant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

You know we already talked about that thin skin of yours. If you going to call a T on the coach late in the game, make sure he earns it.

It's not about me. It's not about thick or thin skin. It's about preserving the respect for the game and the officials. I couldn't care less what he thinks about me; he could think I've taken a bribe to throw the game to the other team for all I care; but he's not going to accuse me of cheating. He can make his point, and express his emotions, another way. If he can't, he'd best find another hobby.

And to paraphrase another ref on this board, he'll be done coaching before I'm done officiating.

Old School · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 09, 2007, 08:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No, I got the analogy, and words can't describe how inappropriate it is. Taking an insult is nothing like taking a bullet. To even compare the two is insulting to Medal of Honor winners, who did a hell of a lot more than take an insult to get that award.

We're on a bb forum, try to keep your focus on that! It was used as an example, not a matter of fact, some referees are wound way too tight!

Quote:

He didn't call it because he didn't want to "decide the game." He allowed the coach to question his integrity without consequence. Who cares? It's 10 year old boys. What would happen to a hs coach or a college coach is beyond irrelevant. Making that comment is beyond the pale, it's beyond an emotional outburst. It's a coach using an emotional moment as an excuse to verbally attack an official and accuse him of a personal bias. HS and college coaches know better, so he wouldn't have to worry about it at that level.

This is where I think you all need to take a step back. You have admitted that if this was a higher level game, you would have just given a warning, but since it's a lower level game, you call it differently. My position is why call a game 2 different ways, depending on what level you're working. If it's a technical at the lower level, then it's a technical at the higher level. Also, you are completely naive if you think this type of communications doesn't occur at the upper levels. It might even be worse at the upper levels because more is at stake. My position is to develop your tolerance level so that it's the same, no matter what lever you are working.

If you feel that this comment was a direct attack on your character. You need to get out more. Believe me, it gets much worse than that. Have you ever heard somebody say things in the heat of battle that they wish they didn't say? If you have ever coach a competitive game of bb, you will know that there are times when you say things out of emotion of the moment that you wish you didn't. And I just don't mean saying things that are out of line to the officials. BB is an emotional sport and as officials, we can't be emotional too, we can't get caught up in the heat of the moment. Being a good official requires balance in everything we do on the court, including dealing with emotions. I know that the majority of you disagree with this position. What this tells me is the majority of you will remain where you are at, because you think it's all about you. How did the one poster say it. "You let the coach insult YOU in front of everyone and get away with it. You just keep calling technicals everytime a coach says something to you that you don't like and see how far that takes you.

Jurassic Referee · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 09, 2007, 09:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

You just keep calling technicals everytime a coach says something to you that you don't like and see how far that takes you.

Well, it'll probably take you out of rec league ball. Is that far enough?

Adam · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 09, 2007, 09:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

We're on a bb forum, try to keep your focus on that!

Keep your "examples" and analogies within the realm of appropriate, and we'll be fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

This is where I think you all need to take a step back. You have admitted that if this was a higher level game, you would have just given a warning, but since it's a lower level game, you call it differently.

Show me where someone who said they'd T here said they'd give a warning in HS. I didn't. I'd T this in a high school game as well and not lose any sleep over it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

My position is why call a game 2 different ways, depending on what level you're working. If it's a technical at the lower level, then it's a technical at the higher level. Also, you are completely naive if you think this type of communications doesn't occur at the upper levels. It might even be worse at the upper levels because more is at stake.

No, you need to get out more. Coaches at upper levels know better and can control their emotions. It's true, it's true. I've seen it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

BB is an emotional sport and as officials, we can't be emotional too, we can't get caught up in the heat of the moment.

I know you don't get this, but calling a T isn't an emotional experience. In fact, it's more often than not a very calming one for the coach involved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

Being a good official requires balance in everything we do on the court, including dealing with emotions.

You don't have any clue what it takes to be a mediocre official, how are you going to tell someone how to be a good one?

Old School · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 09, 2007, 10:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Coaches at upper levels know better and can control their emotions. It's true, it's true. I've seen it.

You just prove my point. You need to get out more. Did you forget about Bobby Knight?

Quote:

I know you don't get this, but calling a T isn't an emotional experience.

If you would have blasted a T at the precise moment the coach made that comment to you, like the OP almost did but caught himself. That would have been an emotional T. You reacted to his comment the exact same way he reacted to the play. Both actions, not well thought out, imho.

A wise man once said; two wrongs don't make a right, and you can't fight fire with fire unless you won't to burn everything down.

Adam · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 09, 2007, 10:24am

I'll bet even Bobby Knight knows better than to accuse his refs of cheating. If not, well, he has been known to get a few Ts.

No, I probably would have thought about it for a second, 'cause I don't get that comment often and it would have taken a moment to register. Just because you might get emotional on your technical fouls in the local rec league doesn't mean that's how real refs do it.

That said, even if it did register immediately and I T'd him right away, it's no more emotional than calling a travel as soon as you see it.

Again, you might want to get a new wise man. This wise guy is just giving you cliches.

FMadera · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 09, 2007, 12:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

A wise man once said; two wrongs don't make a right, and you can't fight fire with fire unless you won't to burn everything down.

Couldn't have been very wise...

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 14, 2007, 09:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

You just prove my point. You need to get out more. Did you forget about Bobby Knight?

If you would have blasted a T at the precise moment the coach made that comment to you, like the OP almost did but caught himself. That would have been an emotional T. You reacted to his comment the exact same way he reacted to the play. Both actions, not well thought out, imho.

A wise man once said; two wrongs don't make a right, and you can't fight fire with fire unless you won't to burn everything down.

Old School:

The coach in this thread went ballistic. I would have unemotionally WHACKED him.

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 10, 2007, 10:43am

Something about the original post brought back a memory to me. It just took me a few days to figure it out.

Girls varsity prep school tournament game. Visiting coach had been complaining about calls most of the first half. Nothing worth a technical foul, but just a constant "nag". Just before halftime a visiting player is fouled, and as she falls to the floor, is injured, enough to bekon the coach onto the court. He comes onto the court with his trainer. The trainer tends to the injured player. The coach "tends to us" and takes this opportunity to complain to both of us that we're not calling enough fouls, we're doing a terrible job, etc. We move away from him, and he proceeds to follow us, so we move farther away. This behavior would have and should have deserved a technical foul under any other circumstance, but my partner and I discussed it a decided that we did not want to make a big deal and call a technical foul while the the player was still in pain on the floor, making every one believe that we were more concerned about the coach than the player's painful injury, but that we would give the coach no more latitude and would call a technical foul the next time he complained. Wouldn't you have it, the coach never said "boo" the entire second half.

We missed our chance. I learned from that expereience. It will never happen again.

Old School · #10 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 11, 2007, 01:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just before halftime a visiting player is fouled, and as she falls to the floor, is injured, enough to bekon the coach onto the court. He comes onto the court with his trainer. The trainer tends to the injured player. The coach "tends to us" and takes this opportunity to complain to both of us that we're not calling enough fouls, we're doing a terrible job, etc. We move away from him, and he proceeds to follow us, so we move farther away. This behavior would have and should have deserved a technical foul under any other circumstance, but my partner and I discussed it a decided that we did not want to make a big deal and call a technical foul while the the player was still in pain on the floor, making every one believe that we were more concerned about the coach than the player's painful injury,

#1.) This is ridiculous. Wait until they get the player off the floor and you are ready to continue the game. Then you give the coach the T. Otherwise, I have to believe the coach is right and you guys where doing a bad job. I say this because of your reluctance to check the coach. I can't believe you didn't say to the coach to go tend to your player while he was complaining, right now, she is more important. If he continues, just say okay coach, you can continue to talk but that's going to cost you a T.

The difference with your analogy and the OP is that the coach made one comment and it was over. He did not continue to follow the guys around. This is not the same circumstance at all. You should feel bad you didn't give out a well deserved T.

BillyMac · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 11, 2007, 01:43pm

From Old School: "You should feel bad you didn't give out a well deserved T."

From BillyMac: "We missed our chance. I learned from that expereience. It will never happen again."

Old School: Just what part of "We missed our chance. I learned from that expereience. It will never happen again.", did you not understand. I'm a brother official. Why would you want to pile it on?

From Old School: "I have to believe the coach is right and you guys where doing a bad job."

Old School: The only information you have about this game is that the coach's conduct deserved a technical foul, that we chose, incorrectly, not to give a technical foul, and from that you deduce that we were doing a bad job. It sounds like you're putting more weight on the coaches unsporting conduct then on our poor decision to not give a technical foul. There are no perfect officials. I'm sure that, like all officials, we missed some calls in that game, but the only real bad call that we made in that game was to wait to give a technical foul.

From Tri-City (Washington State) Officials Association (As posted on this Forum): "The technical foul is given ... if giving a technical will help give structure back to the game and if it will have a calming effect on things."

From BillyMac: "The coach never said "boo" the entire second half."

Old School: Even though I still believe that we were wrong to not give a technical foul in this situation, we didn't give a technical foul and the game improved and the coach calmed down, which according to some sources, is a good reason to give a technical foul. Bottom line: We incorrectly chose not to give a technical foul, but it still worked out in the end, the game improved and the coach calmed down.

Old School · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 11, 2007, 04:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The only information you have about this game is that the coach's conduct deserved a technical foul, that we chose, incorrectly, not to give a technical foul, and from that you deduce that we were doing a bad job. It sounds like you're putting more weight on the coaches unsporting conduct then on our poor decision to not give a technical foul.

I deducted that if the coach attacked you and you retreated that in your mind, you felt he was right. My reason for piling on was to shock you into never letting that happen again, and I followed that up with a couple of examples. Saying it and doing it is two different things.

One more thing, I thought that was good character not wanting to give a T while the girl was laying hurt on the floor. These things can't be taught or learned from a rulebook. I respect that because most of the guys on this forum would have gone into it's all about me mode. Just remember this, you don't have to show the T sign to give a technical. Walk over to the table when you are about ready to start and tell the table we have a technical foul on the coach for constant complaining. Notify both benches, get you a shooter and continue on. You can low-key the event.

Sorry for piling on, thanks for sharing.