Would you have T ed ?

[j51969]

Whack him, whack him, and maybe whack him. My partner got the "don't cheat the kids" line this weekend.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

NewNCref,

He asked for opinions. If he asked for opinions, I am sure he is bright enough to realize that we all will not agree or give the same opinion. I am telling him/her what I would do. What he/she does in this situation is up to them. This is why it is called "judgment." I am not giving a coach a free shot to question my integrity and yell at me in that situation. You do what you want to do. It is your credibility on the line, not mine.

Peace

Is the JRut or JUrassic? I'm confused.

[Raymond]

This reads just like a classic JRut posting.

Originally Posted by NewNCref

Philz,

... I think you're probably going to get lots of different points of view on this, so I would encourage you to read them, and then decide what you think works best. Sometimes on this forum, people will try to argue that there's a hard and fast answer to these kinds of questions, but IMO there are not, and you've got to figure out what works for you.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

NewNCref,

... I am not giving a coach a free shot to question my integrity and yell at me in that situation. You do what you want to do. It is your credibility on the line, not mine.

Peace

Is this a JRut posting or a Jurassic posting? I'm confused.

[blindmanwalking]

Originally Posted by j51969

Whack him, whack him, and maybe whack him. My partner got the "don't cheat the kids" line this weekend.

So you're in favor of penalizing a kid for insulting an official but if someone in the crowd insults/gets personal with a kid you consider it part of the game?
Your not very consistent.

Originally Posted by j51969

Have we really become this sensitive? Maybe we should mandate group prayer during time-outs. All gods and deities will be admitted. The PC police should be present to issue any tickets for violations and penalties to the PC code. 99.9% of anything that goes on in a high school gym is harmless fun. If little Johnny is emotionally devastated by jeers coming from the crowd, maybe competitive sports aren't his bag. Our silly society continues to cater to the minority. All we need now is a minister in front of the county court house burning NF publications. I can't believe there are to many of us (officials) who go home and cry because of what some student section said to us. If so, may I suggest officiating the pickle races at your local Mc D's.

[Junker]

Absolutely assess the T. You aren't costing the kids a thing, their coach is for being an idiot. I had to call a similar T in a JV girls game this year. They are invited out on the floor to attend to a player, not to complain about you.

[j51969]

Originally Posted by blindmanwalking

So you're in favor of penalizing a kid for insulting an official but if someone in the crowd insults/gets personal with a kid you consider it part of the game?
Your not very consistent.

Yes I am consistent. I officiate the game, not society. The coach is part of the team and can be dealt with accordingly. I not even sure how you can marry the two together? You will be a very busy guy dealing with players coaches and fans. Remember I wasn't in favor of abusive behavior, just didn't think it was my job to deal with it. There are rare times when the game needs to stop to control,or remove a spectator. But for booing, clever signage, and turning back during visiting intros? Not my problem. If the school admin. isn't worried why should I be.

[JugglingReferee]

Given the time left in the game, score, and the situation in general, I think a great official will do everything is her power to avoid the calling the Technical Foul, and then still issue it when she's done her part of not being a part of the game.

I'd call the T in your case.

This sitch is a perfect example of why not to hang around, and in fact to get away from, the coach and injured player.

I would have started walking away as soon as the C came onto the court. No need for you to be there.

[Scrapper1]

If I were standing right next to the kid as the coach came out and he said that, I would probably T him. (Nah, I'd definitely T him at this age level!) But the best thing would be NOT to be standing right there. Anytime a kid goes down and the coach or trainer comes out on the floor get away from the kid. That way the coach has to either yell across the floor or chase you to yell at you. And in those cases, the T is easier to call b/c everybody in the gym knows what happened.

[blindmanwalking]

Originally Posted by j51969

Yes I am consistent. I officiate the game, not society. The coach is part of the team and can be dealt with accordingly. I not even sure how you can marry the two together? You will be a very busy guy dealing with players coaches and fans. Remember I wasn't in favor of abusive behavior, just didn't think it was my job to deal with it. There are rare times when the game needs to stop to control,or remove a spectator. But for booing, clever signage, and turning back during visiting intros? Not my problem. If the school admin. isn't worried why should I be.

The three things you mention aren't in the same category as what is being discussed. Personal insults during a game directed at a player are your business. It only takes a couple of minutes to get an AD or other administrator to deal with it. It will be the last time you have to at that game. Also keep in mind that you are on the floor with the players and will hear things game management will not. It is your obligation to the game to work with game management to deal with potentially explosive situations.
I have yet to remove a fan from a game but will not hesitate if they start verbally abusing a player. I've noticed an escalation in the tone of comments at 3 or 4 of my games this year. I would rather remove a fan than see a player go after him. JMO

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Philz

Sunday I was doing the local championship game of a NJB div 3 game (9 and 10 year olds). Packed gym, no complaints that I could hear as it was very noisy with all the people. 24 sec left, Team "A" 31, Team "B" 32. Team A player stumbles (I didnt see a trip or foul and neither did my partner), Boy falls down looses ball out of bounds. He's on floor crying like a baby, coach come out on floor towards the boy and yells at me and said Whats up with that Ref....you got something against that kid? That pissed me off so much that he would say I didnt care for that kid. I dropped the ball and was getting ready to give the whistle and T, I was actually bring my hands up but in a split second I thought If I did that I would take away a good game from the kids and Team "B" could Ice the game because of the team "A" coach if I called it. Boy was fine, and coach gave me a dirty look as he walked off the court and I was steaming inside just waiting for him to say something else but he didnt so, I sucked it up and handed the ball in. Team "B" threw away the inbound pass and Team "A" got it back....took 4 or 5 shots missing and game was over....I felt justice was served by team "B" winning and I felt I did the right thing by sucking it up this time....Just woundering what anybody else would have done.

You got quite a few opinions out here on this, and they are varied and all correct. However, I commend you for "not" giving the T in this situation because of what you stated; you had a great game, and for the betterment of the game, you took one. Hooray for you, this is good officiating and the rest of the people out here should take note. You took one for the home team, the referees. We reward sacrifices like this in the armed forces with a metal of honor. You've earned one today, at least imo, you did. You could have blasted him and been correct in your call, however, IMO, the only thing you would have proven is that it's all about you. You took it personal and it was not meant as a personal attack on your character as an official. It was an emotional outburst from a coach who was into it, as he should be. Add on to that an injured player in a very close game that he was one point behind in, and he needed something called in his favor at that point in time, which he didn't get. His timing for saying this was not good, however, you proved to be the bigger man this day and ignored it for what it was, an emotional, not well thought out outburst. What you did cannot be learned from reading a rulebook, but I can tell you with certainly, that this is what true officiating is all about. Being able to separate yourself from the emotion of the game and dealing with the game not as a controller, dominate person with a chip on his shoulder, but a participant in the game with responsibilities to the game. In certain situation there are times when the rule makers want us to apply judgment instead of the rule of law and it's really hard to explain judgment (when is enough enough) but I thought your judgment here was outstanding.

For the next time, when you blow the play dead and beckon for the coach, you should be walking the other way like the others here have suggested. In fact, this is a good time to go talk with your partner, head the furthest away from the coach, IOW, don't go walk by the coach or the bench. Go talk to your partner about the last 24 seconds of the game, how many TO's is left, anybody in the bonus, last sec. shot, etc. Just giving you something to think about to go do. Since the kid is standing there hurt, you ain't putting that ball in right away so no need to stand there getting ready to hand the ball to Team B. This gets you and the coach out of harms way. I call it preventative officiating, even if it's in reverse. My point is, you can't call a T on something you didn't hear.

My opinion, based on what the coach stated is not T worthy. Now, if he laced that comment with a few swear words, yea, you're getting it. However, I know exactly what you mean when you say those words bothered you. Welcome to officiating. Had a similar thing happened last night in a wreck league. Had to have a few afterwards to calm myself down before going home.

[Junker]

How is it good for any game to let a Kiddieball coach teach the kids that it is OK to whine and complain about officiating? Sportsmanship should be the #1 priority in any game, especially Kiddieball.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Old School

You got quite a few opinions out here on this, and they are varied and all correct. However, I commend you for "not" giving the T in this situation because of what you stated; you had a great game, and for the betterment of the game, you took one. Hooray for you, this is good officiating and the rest of the people out here should take note. You took one for the home team, the referees. We reward sacrifices like this in the armed forces with a metal of honor. You've earned one today, at least imo, you did. You could have blasted him and been correct in your call, however, IMO, the only thing you would have proven is that it's all about you. You took it personal and it was not meant as a personal attack on your character as an official. It was an emotional outburst from a coach who was into it, as he should be. Add on to that an injured player in a very close game that he was one point behind in, and he needed something called in his favor at that point in time, which he didn't get. His timing for saying this was not good, however, you proved to be the bigger man this day and ignored it for what it was, an emotional, not well thought out outburst. What you did cannot be learned from reading a rulebook, but I can tell you with certainly, that this is what true officiating is all about. Being able to separate yourself from the emotion of the game and dealing with the game not as a controller, dominate person with a chip on his shoulder, but a participant in the game with responsibilities to the game. In certain situation there are times when the rule makers want us to apply judgment instead of the rule of law and it's really hard to explain judgment (when is enough enough) but I thought your judgment here was outstanding.

For the next time, when you blow the play dead and beckon for the coach, you should be walking the other way like the others here have suggested. In fact, this is a good time to go talk with your partner, head the furthest away from the coach, IOW, don't go walk by the coach or the bench. Go talk to your partner about the last 24 seconds of the game, how many TO's is left, anybody in the bonus, last sec. shot, etc. Just giving you something to think about to go do. Since the kid is standing there hurt, you ain't putting that ball in right away so no need to stand there getting ready to hand the ball to Team B. This gets you and the coach out of harms way. I call it preventative officiating, even if it's in reverse. My point is, you can't call a T on something you didn't hear.

My opinion, based on what the coach stated is not T worthy. Now, if he laced that comment with a few swear words, yea, you're getting it. However, I know exactly what you mean when you say those words bothered you. Welcome to officiating. Had a similar thing happened last night in a wreck league. Had to have a few afterwards to calm myself down before going home.

now we know you did the wrong thing if OS sides with you -- by the way what metal would he have gotten had he started blasting fools up in the gym?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

You took one for the home team, the referees. We reward sacrifices like this in the armed forces with a metal of honor.

Look, youv'e been known to use some pretty absurd hyperbole. This is probably in your top two. Utterly senseless.

Originally Posted by Old School

You could have blasted him and been correct in your call, however, IMO, the only thing you would have proven is that it's all about you.

You're hung up on this "all about you" kick. It's not what he would have shown. He would have shown you shouldn't accuse a ref of cheating in a game. Period.

Originally Posted by Old School

You took it personal and it was not meant as a personal attack on your character as an official. It was an emotional outburst from a coach who was into it, as he should be.

Wrong. An emotional outburst is more like, "You've got to call something." Asking if you have something against the kid is personal, and it's been brewing for a while to come to that comment. It's not the first thing that comes to anyone's mind.

Originally Posted by Old School

My opinion, based on what the coach stated is not T worthy. Now, if he laced that comment with a few swear words, yea, you're getting it.

Swear words aren't necessary when he accuses you having something personal against his kids.

Originally Posted by Old School

However, I know exactly what you mean when you say those words bothered you. Welcome to officiating. Had a similar thing happened last night in a wreck league. Had to have a few afterwards to calm myself down before going home.

This, I believe.

[grunewar]

Philz - one thing I will say is that it's easy to be a Monday morning quaterback and say oh yeah, I would have T'd him up in a heart beat. Been there, done that.

But, as a newer ref, I feel for you and have second guessed myself at times. Most times I too say, I shoulda been more forceful and next time I will T em up. But, that event is gone, and we grow, learn, and become more seasoned.

I will say, in the past, I have been more tolerant, right or wrong, with the wreck league coaches, especially at the younger leagues, than I am with the older ages, MS, JV, and HS. But, as I gain more experience, watch, read, and learn more, I imagine that may change....... and I'll whack em more and become less tolerant!

[Junker]

It is a learning process. I've always been taught, and I now feel this way, that if you feel like you should have given after the game, you probably should have. As time goes on, you'll get a better feel for what you find unsportsmanlike and what you will put up with. Personally, and I think most on this board will agree, the lower level you work, the less unsportsmanlike conduct I'd put up with. The players are still learning the game. Coaches should be concerned with teaching the players, not questioning officials that are volunteering their time, or providing their service for a lower pay.