Would you have T ed ?

JRutledge · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 07, 2007, 05:21pm

I would have T'd him up in a second. First of all this is 9 or 10 year olds. This is not the NBA. Secondly he questioned your integrity. I do not care if part of his job was to offer the kid assistance he was not going to do it yelling at me. If he got a T, then he might realize that is not the time or the place to start yelling at officials. Send that a-hole to the showers.

Peace

NewNCref · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 07, 2007, 05:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would have T'd him up in a second. First of all this is 9 or 10 year olds. This is not the NBA. Secondly he questioned your integrity. I do not care if part of his job was to offer the kid assistance he was not going to do it yelling at me. If he got a T, then he might realize that is not the time or the place to start yelling at officials. Send that a-hole to the showers.

Peace

Philz,

As I think it apparent, JRut's and my opinions on this are quite different, but I see JRut's point of view. I think you're probably going to get lots of different points of view on this, so I would encourage you to read them, and then decide what you think works best. Sometimes on this forum, people will try to argue that there's a hard and fast answer to these kinds of questions, but IMO there are not, and you've got to figure out what works for you.

JRutledge · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 07, 2007, 05:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewNCref

Philz,

As I think it apparent, JRut's and my opinions on this are quite different, but I see JRut's point of view. I think you're probably going to get lots of different points of view on this, so I would encourage you to read them, and then decide what you think works best. Sometimes on this forum, people will try to argue that there's a hard and fast answer to these kinds of questions, but IMO there are not, and you've got to figure out what works for you.

NewNCref,

He asked for opinions. If he asked for opinions, I am sure he is bright enough to realize that we all will not agree or give the same opinion. I am telling him/her what I would do. What he/she does in this situation is up to them. This is why it is called "judgment." I am not giving a coach a free shot to question my integrity and yell at me in that situation. You do what you want to do. It is your credibility on the line, not mine.

Peace

Raymond · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 08, 2007, 08:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

NewNCref,

He asked for opinions. If he asked for opinions, I am sure he is bright enough to realize that we all will not agree or give the same opinion. I am telling him/her what I would do. What he/she does in this situation is up to them. This is why it is called "judgment." I am not giving a coach a free shot to question my integrity and yell at me in that situation. You do what you want to do. It is your credibility on the line, not mine.

Peace

Is the JRut or JUrassic? I'm confused.

Raymond · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 08, 2007, 08:18am

This reads just like a classic JRut posting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewNCref

Philz,

... I think you're probably going to get lots of different points of view on this, so I would encourage you to read them, and then decide what you think works best. Sometimes on this forum, people will try to argue that there's a hard and fast answer to these kinds of questions, but IMO there are not, and you've got to figure out what works for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

NewNCref,

... I am not giving a coach a free shot to question my integrity and yell at me in that situation. You do what you want to do. It is your credibility on the line, not mine.

Peace

Is this a JRut posting or a Jurassic posting? I'm confused.

deecee · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 07, 2007, 05:47pm

any public questioning of my integrity is an automatic T -- if this is a private conversation the coach can get away with this one but I will let him know that if he chooses to question my integrity again it will cost him. this falls under the public type of calling out and IMO is a T. Like JRut mentions 9th and 10th grade basketball no biggie. But even in HS the score and position of the game should not be a factor in theory however in reality it does come into play.

Here I would have T'd him up and any whining that I cost them the game falls on deaf ears because the fact remains that I would not have made that call if the coach had not called my integrity into question. cause and effect.

One T that for some reason I remember from a 4th 5th grade girls tourney where one of the local Hs varsity girls coaches coaches this team yells across the court after I make a call "You better not make that call in a HS game." well he got rung up. couple months later the season started and I had him -- nevertheless couple times he started trying to push the envelope I was able to utilize the Old School Imminent Stare of Death Destruction and Doom (tm) and he quickly retreated. Point is -- sometimes how you carry yourself in the offseason can help you out in the games that matter (yes, yes they ALL mater of course they do).

Jurassic Referee · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 07, 2007, 05:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would have T'd him up in a second. First of all this is 9 or 10 year olds. This is not the NBA. Secondly he questioned your integrity. I do not care if part of his job was to offer the kid assistance he was not going to do it yelling at me. If he got a T, then he might realize that is not the time or the place to start yelling at officials. Send that a-hole to the showers.

Amen!!

No brainer imo either.

Philz · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 07, 2007, 06:14pm

Thanks for the feedback but I want to let you all know I'm not affraid to T anybody and have called a lot of them this year at many different levels of b-ball and have even tossed 3 people so far but I have tolerated more than alot and maybe not as much as some....I also remember when I played and coached I said some dumb stuff out of fustration, been T ed and ejected also and know what that is like on the other end but one thing I hear all the time in officating....other sports also....is to try and keep the players or coach in the game if at all possible....guess my biggest problem is where I personally draw the line because that comment pissed me off like no other thing I heard all year and I just sucked it up for the kids....I felt good about it after the game but still questioning myself if it was right.

Adam · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 07, 2007, 06:34pm

If he comes out there to tend to the kid and tells me I need to call something, I'm probably going to let that go depending on the volume and tone.
If he comes out to tend the to the kid and questions my integrity, and I don’t see any other way to take "You got something against this kid?" then it's an easy T. The natural reaction to a kid getting hurt on a no-call is to tell the ref he needs to be calling something. The natural reaction is not to accuse the ref of having something personal against the player.

j51969 · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 07, 2007, 06:42pm

Whack him, whack him, and maybe whack him. My partner got the "don't cheat the kids" line this weekend.

blindmanwalking · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 08, 2007, 08:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by j51969

Whack him, whack him, and maybe whack him. My partner got the "don't cheat the kids" line this weekend.

So you're in favor of penalizing a kid for insulting an official but if someone in the crowd insults/gets personal with a kid you consider it part of the game?
Your not very consistent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by j51969

Have we really become this sensitive? Maybe we should mandate group prayer during time-outs. All gods and deities will be admitted. The PC police should be present to issue any tickets for violations and penalties to the PC code. 99.9% of anything that goes on in a high school gym is harmless fun. If little Johnny is emotionally devastated by jeers coming from the crowd, maybe competitive sports aren't his bag. Our silly society continues to cater to the minority. All we need now is a minister in front of the county court house burning NF publications. I can't believe there are to many of us (officials) who go home and cry because of what some student section said to us. If so, may I suggest officiating the pickle races at your local Mc D's.

Junker · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 08, 2007, 09:24am

Absolutely assess the T. You aren't costing the kids a thing, their coach is for being an idiot. I had to call a similar T in a JV girls game this year. They are invited out on the floor to attend to a player, not to complain about you.

j51969 · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 08, 2007, 11:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindmanwalking

So you're in favor of penalizing a kid for insulting an official but if someone in the crowd insults/gets personal with a kid you consider it part of the game?
Your not very consistent.

Yes I am consistent. I officiate the game, not society. The coach is part of the team and can be dealt with accordingly. I not even sure how you can marry the two together? You will be a very busy guy dealing with players coaches and fans. Remember I wasn't in favor of abusive behavior, just didn't think it was my job to deal with it. There are rare times when the game needs to stop to control,or remove a spectator. But for booing, clever signage, and turning back during visiting intros? Not my problem. If the school admin. isn't worried why should I be.

JugglingReferee · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 08, 2007, 12:02pm

Given the time left in the game, score, and the situation in general, I think a great official will do everything is her power to avoid the calling the Technical Foul, and then still issue it when she's done her part of not being a part of the game.

I'd call the T in your case.

This sitch is a perfect example of why not to hang around, and in fact to get away from, the coach and injured player.

I would have started walking away as soon as the C came onto the court. No need for you to be there.

blindmanwalking · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 08, 2007, 05:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by j51969

Yes I am consistent. I officiate the game, not society. The coach is part of the team and can be dealt with accordingly. I not even sure how you can marry the two together? You will be a very busy guy dealing with players coaches and fans. Remember I wasn't in favor of abusive behavior, just didn't think it was my job to deal with it. There are rare times when the game needs to stop to control,or remove a spectator. But for booing, clever signage, and turning back during visiting intros? Not my problem. If the school admin. isn't worried why should I be.

The three things you mention aren't in the same category as what is being discussed. Personal insults during a game directed at a player are your business. It only takes a couple of minutes to get an AD or other administrator to deal with it. It will be the last time you have to at that game. Also keep in mind that you are on the floor with the players and will hear things game management will not. It is your obligation to the game to work with game management to deal with potentially explosive situations.
I have yet to remove a fan from a game but will not hesitate if they start verbally abusing a player. I've noticed an escalation in the tone of comments at 3 or 4 of my games this year. I would rather remove a fan than see a player go after him. JMO