Would you have T ed ?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

At question is the behavior of a individual involved in the game and we have pointed out rules that prohibit the very behavior in question. That most of the posters think it is intelligent to immediately give the "T" is not an anomoly of a local officials association. It represents the collective intelligence of many who base their decision on the authority not themselves. When the same decision is reached by those who are neither bound by geography nor level of officiating, that is the ultimate in integrity. And the integrity of the game is maintained by not depriving the other team from the chance to score points to win the game as a consequence of the other coach's actions.

That's bringing BS into the game. If you are worried about rewarding the team extra F/T's so that they have more chances to score because this coach shouldn't have said that to you. I am deeply concerned about your integrity as an official, because that is truly the farest thing from my mind in that situation. I'm thinking about the act, my part in this act (questionable play, player hurt) and how that relates to what has transpired to this point in the game. My focus is on the game which is where it should be. I don't think about nothing like that until after the game. I'm never going to base a decision to reward a technical or not on the fact that this team should get to score more. That's unethical, imo.

Alright, it appears you have the same problem as the others. You been drinking that Kool-Aid and we have pretty much comfirmed that there is something in the Kool-Aid around here. Okay, I need you to sit down, relax, take a deep breath and repeat after me.

It's not all about me,
again, it's not all about me,
one more time,
it's not all about me.
It's about the players,
it's about the game,
but it's not about me.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by Old School

To me, if these words upset you that much that you would enforce the T in a one-point game with 24 seconds left on the clock, imo, you are not ready to officiate upper level basketball. Maybe this field is not for you. Maybe you just don't have what it takes to succeed at this because I'm here to tell you, it gets much worse than that!

So far my posts on this thread have only disagreed with your position and are devoid of any personal attacks that you took offense to in posts before I chimed in. I gave you no reason to make the above statement nor the Kool-ade comment later.

FYI:
26 years total experience.
25 years officiating at college level.
3 years as an alternate in the BIG 10 assigned to the University of Michigan before they went to 3 officials.
20 years as a Div 1 evaluator and scout.
10 years officiating AAU, YBOA, and AYBT National Championships.

In ALL the conferences in which I officiated/scouted/evaluated the officials were required to take care of coach's behavior such as mentioned in this sitch and were supported by supervisors.

Coaches behavior in youth games is far worse than any collegiate game I have ever been involved with. If fact at the youth National Championships coaches are amazed at the number of "T's" received by themselves during the tournament. Why? Because most of the officials have collegiate experience and do not hesitate to enforce bench decorum.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

So far my posts on this thread have only disagreed with your position and are devoid of any personal attacks that you took offense to in posts before I chimed in. I gave you no reason to make the above statement nor the Kool-ade comment later.

It's now official. Old School can piss off a Preacher.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

Maybe you just don't have what it takes to succeed at this because I'm here to tell you, it gets much worse than that!

Without regard to your unprovoked personal attack on Daryl, I have to add something here.
It only gets worse than that when you let it. As I said before, coaches are able to control themselves when you tell them they need to. The comments in the OP aren't an emotional reaction; they're a calculated personal statement designed to make a point. Furthermore, they are unsportsmanlike, and deserve an easy T. Do it "quietly" if you like, but call the T.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by Old School

What is with you and this rulebook?

2006-07 NFHS Basketball Rules, please quote the last line on page 39. That should at least demonstrate access to a rulebook, which you have not yet done.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

So far my posts on this thread have only disagreed with your position and are devoid of any personal attacks that you took offense to in posts before I chimed in. I gave you no reason to make the above statement nor the Kool-ade comment later.

Daryl, don't be so sensitive. I have not attacked you personally, just a little good nature, old fun teasing. As officials, we can't be that sensitive on the surface. When you are, you make it all about you. Plus, you can't come into this den a saint. Too much bad blood has already been spilled. If you want to wrestle with the lions, you're going to get some blood on you. Snaqs says my comments was unprovoked. Daryl, you provoked me the minute you challenge my position, but I am not mad at you, nor would I give you a technical for it. That's the different between me and you. You are upset while I'm laughing inside. So I say to the coach, you going to have to do more than that if you want to get a response out of me. Otherwise, I'm going over here to talk to my partner about how we are going to call the last 24 seconds of this game.

It is a pleasure to meet you Mr. Daryl H. Long. I am humbled and honored by your accomplishments and do respect your position and opinion on this topic. Thanks for chimming in.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

Daryl, don't be so sensitive. I have not attacked you personally, just a little good nature, old fun teasing.

There are requirements for this that you don't meet.

Originally Posted by Old School

Snaqs says my comments was unprovoked. Daryl, you provoked me the minute you challenge my position,

So questioning your position is considered provokation for a personal attack? Speaks volumes....

Originally Posted by Old School

So I say to the coach, you going to have to do more than that if you want to get a response out of me. Otherwise, I'm going over here to talk to my partner about how we are going to call the last 24 seconds of the game.

Don't say a word to the coach. Call the T, report the T, and when the injured player is removed from the court, shoot the freethrows.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by Old School

What is with you and this rulebook?

You really should go away.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Daryl, don't be so sensitive. I have not attacked you personally, just a little good nature, old fun teasing. As officials, we can't be that sensitive on the surface. When you are, you make it all about you. Plus, you can't come into this den a saint. Too much bad blood has already been spilled. If you want to wrestle with the lions, you're going to get some blood on you. Snaqs says my comments was unprovoked. Daryl, you provoked me the minute you challenge my position, but I am not mad at you, nor would I give you a technical for it. That's the different between me and you. You are upset while I'm laughing inside. So I say to the coach, you going to have to do more than that if you want to get a response out of me. Otherwise, I'm going over here to talk to my partner about how we are going to call the last 24 seconds of the game.

It is a pleasure to meet you. I am humbled and honored by your accomplishments and do respect your position and opinion on this topic. Thanks for chimming in.

One of OS's top 10 -- the imagery he draws with his words are Orwellian at worst...

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Now, we have to think about how we define "real official." If it's just someone who owns a striped shirt, whistle, and black shorts, then it doesn't matter.

If it is someone who actually belongs to an organization of officials (peers who train and teach and hold each other accountable), who studies the rules in an effort to better understand them and to better apply them to games, and who actually cares about the game itself instead of the check; well, then let's just say there are quite a few refs that don't qualify.

I'm certain that M&M, however, does qualify.

As one who has witnessed M&M officiate, I can vouch for his realness.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by ChrisSportsFan

As one who has witnessed M&M officiate, I can vouch for his realness.

Whew, thanks Chris.

After reading OS's posts, I was wondering if I was just a figment of my imagination.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

You really should go away.

In the words of Monday Night Football's Tony Kornheiser: "He gots to go. He gots to go!!"

[Philz]

WOW! I cant believe the response I got from this. This is the first time I got a chance to check it out since I posted it....guess I've been working too many games (48 games since 1 feb 07). I think oldschool is the only one that kinda understood what I felt at the time. I know all about integrity of the game and so on and even when I talked to my ref buddies most said I should have "T" ed him, But if you saw one of my replies I also mentioned I played and coached also and have said stuff out of frustration regerting what I said and Oldschool caught that part. He also caught the part on how I mentioned the game went great up to that point, close all the way, no complaints just a good close clean game (local championship) and I just couldnt see firering up the whole gym ( at least 300 people) with a few seconds left when it was something between me and the coach and only a couple people may have heard. I will say it did piss me off like no other comment all year. But when I went home, grab a beer and jumped in my hot tub I felt good about it but woundered what other Refs would have done. By the way I'm not that new a Ref. I've been Officiating for 10 years, mostly Armed Forces adult and youth Rec leagues as its all I had a chance to do since I was in the military for 22 years, I just started NJBL this year and loved it. I got selected to do the district championship last sunday ( 3 man, that was cool) and would love to do High School again (only did 1 year) and college would be a dream. Learned more this year then any and alot from this forum....thanks

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Philz

I think oldschool is the only one that kinda understood what I felt at the time. I know all about integrity of the game and so on and even when I talked to my ref buddies most said I should have "T" ed him,

Yikes! We'll try not to hold that against you.

[M&M Guy]

Philz - if you've been around this forum long enough you would start to doubt yourself even more if Old School agrees with you...

Let me ask you this about the original post: let's say in your game, instead of the coach coming out and doing his thing, sub A6 has to come in for A1 because A1 twisted their ankle on the play. 24 sec. left, A is down by one. A6 gets the ball, and does an obvious travel, because they hadn't been in the game before this. Does this thought cross your mind: "Maybe I should let this travel go, because all the other A players played their hearts out this game, and it would be a shame to let this one player cost them the game"? I would hope you don't call the game this way. You should call the travel and move on. It is exactly the same with the coach's actions. You make the call, and move on. The coach's actions cost the team the game, not your call. Granted, you felt yourself getting emotional, and it is a good thing to try and keep emotions from getting in the way of the calls. But if the coach crosses the line, it's his fault for costing his players.

I've figured out that if I leave a game wondering if I should've given a "T", then I should have given it. I have never left a game wondering if I should not have issued a T when I have.