Would you have T ed ?

[canuckrefguy]

Whack.

End of story.

[TRef21]

I would have T'ed him. He made you look like a bad person in front of the packed gym. He disrespected and in youth sports that warrants a T since coaches are to be role models for the kids.

[chartrusepengui]

Even if you had T'd the coach, and I would have, you would not be taking the game away from the kids. He had already done that with his comments that drew a T. Giving the T might educate the coach and kids about respect for officials.

The score should never dictate whether or not an official makes a call. If there is a foul or violation that has been called consistently throughout the game - it should be called every time it occurs.

I HATE it when I hear someone say something like; "it's a tight one - don't call anything unless there's blood. Let the kids decide it" As far as I'm concerned - the kids do decide it but the deciding factor could have been a player doing something illegal that required an official to make a call.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

Even if you had T'd the coach, and I would have, you would not be taking the game away from the kids. He had already done that with his comments that drew a T. Giving the T might educate the coach and kids about respect for officials. All about me, you guys are sickening.

The score should never dictate whether or not an official makes a call. Nobody ever said this. I am a firm believer that you should not call the game according to the score, however, in actual practice it does happen. In the case here, where you got a one point game, I think it was a good decision to let the comment slide.

If there is a foul or violation that has been called consistently throughout the game - it should be called every time it occurs. The problem is, this was not a violation but a TF. Since no T's had been called to this point. How does that effect your analogy now? If the coach has been a saint up to this point in the game. I would ignore the comment and chalk it up to emotion. Remember the old saying, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me, unless you are a basketball official

I HATE it when I hear someone say something like; "it's a tight one - don't call anything unless there's blood. Let the kids decide it" As far as I'm concerned - the kids do decide it but the deciding factor could have been a player doing something illegal that required an official to make a call.

Welcome to officiating. You hate to have a game come down to an officials call, but sometimes it happens.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Old School

Welcome to officiating. You hate to have a game come down to an officials call, but sometimes it happens.

Wizards down by two with .1 seconds to go in the game. Arenas gets the foul call and Nellie (coach) gets the T.....Arenas hits all three FT's and Wizards win by 1! Game over.....

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Philz

Sunday I was doing the local championship game of a NJB div 3 game (9 and 10 year olds). Packed gym, no complaints that I could hear as it was very noisy with all the people. 24 sec left, Team "A" 31, Team "B" 32. Team A player stumbles (I didnt see a trip or foul and neither did my partner), Boy falls down looses ball out of bounds. He's on floor crying like a baby, coach come out on floor towards the boy and yells at me and said Whats up with that Ref....you got something against that kid? That pissed me off so much that he would say I didnt care for that kid. I dropped the ball and was getting ready to give the whistle and T, I was actually bring my hands up but in a split second I thought If I did that I would take away a good game from the kids and Team "B" could Ice the game because of the team "A" coach if I called it. Boy was fine, and coach gave me a dirty look as he walked off the court and I was steaming inside just waiting for him to say something else but he didnt so, I sucked it up and handed the ball in. Team "B" threw away the inbound pass and Team "A" got it back....took 4 or 5 shots missing and game was over....I felt justice was served by team "B" winning and I felt I did the right thing by sucking it up this time....Just woundering what anybody else would have done.

You got quite a few opinions out here on this, and they are varied and all correct. However, I commend you for "not" giving the T in this situation because of what you stated; you had a great game, and for the betterment of the game, you took one. Hooray for you, this is good officiating and the rest of the people out here should take note. You took one for the home team, the referees. We reward sacrifices like this in the armed forces with a metal of honor. You've earned one today, at least imo, you did. You could have blasted him and been correct in your call, however, IMO, the only thing you would have proven is that it's all about you. You took it personal and it was not meant as a personal attack on your character as an official. It was an emotional outburst from a coach who was into it, as he should be. Add on to that an injured player in a very close game that he was one point behind in, and he needed something called in his favor at that point in time, which he didn't get. His timing for saying this was not good, however, you proved to be the bigger man this day and ignored it for what it was, an emotional, not well thought out outburst. What you did cannot be learned from reading a rulebook, but I can tell you with certainly, that this is what true officiating is all about. Being able to separate yourself from the emotion of the game and dealing with the game not as a controller, dominate person with a chip on his shoulder, but a participant in the game with responsibilities to the game. In certain situation there are times when the rule makers want us to apply judgment instead of the rule of law and it's really hard to explain judgment (when is enough enough) but I thought your judgment here was outstanding.

For the next time, when you blow the play dead and beckon for the coach, you should be walking the other way like the others here have suggested. In fact, this is a good time to go talk with your partner, head the furthest away from the coach, IOW, don't go walk by the coach or the bench. Go talk to your partner about the last 24 seconds of the game, how many TO's is left, anybody in the bonus, last sec. shot, etc. Just giving you something to think about to go do. Since the kid is standing there hurt, you ain't putting that ball in right away so no need to stand there getting ready to hand the ball to Team B. This gets you and the coach out of harms way. I call it preventative officiating, even if it's in reverse. My point is, you can't call a T on something you didn't hear.

My opinion, based on what the coach stated is not T worthy. Now, if he laced that comment with a few swear words, yea, you're getting it. However, I know exactly what you mean when you say those words bothered you. Welcome to officiating. Had a similar thing happened last night in a wreck league. Had to have a few afterwards to calm myself down before going home.

[Junker]

How is it good for any game to let a Kiddieball coach teach the kids that it is OK to whine and complain about officiating? Sportsmanship should be the #1 priority in any game, especially Kiddieball.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Old School

You got quite a few opinions out here on this, and they are varied and all correct. However, I commend you for "not" giving the T in this situation because of what you stated; you had a great game, and for the betterment of the game, you took one. Hooray for you, this is good officiating and the rest of the people out here should take note. You took one for the home team, the referees. We reward sacrifices like this in the armed forces with a metal of honor. You've earned one today, at least imo, you did. You could have blasted him and been correct in your call, however, IMO, the only thing you would have proven is that it's all about you. You took it personal and it was not meant as a personal attack on your character as an official. It was an emotional outburst from a coach who was into it, as he should be. Add on to that an injured player in a very close game that he was one point behind in, and he needed something called in his favor at that point in time, which he didn't get. His timing for saying this was not good, however, you proved to be the bigger man this day and ignored it for what it was, an emotional, not well thought out outburst. What you did cannot be learned from reading a rulebook, but I can tell you with certainly, that this is what true officiating is all about. Being able to separate yourself from the emotion of the game and dealing with the game not as a controller, dominate person with a chip on his shoulder, but a participant in the game with responsibilities to the game. In certain situation there are times when the rule makers want us to apply judgment instead of the rule of law and it's really hard to explain judgment (when is enough enough) but I thought your judgment here was outstanding.

For the next time, when you blow the play dead and beckon for the coach, you should be walking the other way like the others here have suggested. In fact, this is a good time to go talk with your partner, head the furthest away from the coach, IOW, don't go walk by the coach or the bench. Go talk to your partner about the last 24 seconds of the game, how many TO's is left, anybody in the bonus, last sec. shot, etc. Just giving you something to think about to go do. Since the kid is standing there hurt, you ain't putting that ball in right away so no need to stand there getting ready to hand the ball to Team B. This gets you and the coach out of harms way. I call it preventative officiating, even if it's in reverse. My point is, you can't call a T on something you didn't hear.

My opinion, based on what the coach stated is not T worthy. Now, if he laced that comment with a few swear words, yea, you're getting it. However, I know exactly what you mean when you say those words bothered you. Welcome to officiating. Had a similar thing happened last night in a wreck league. Had to have a few afterwards to calm myself down before going home.

now we know you did the wrong thing if OS sides with you -- by the way what metal would he have gotten had he started blasting fools up in the gym?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

You took one for the home team, the referees. We reward sacrifices like this in the armed forces with a metal of honor.

Look, youv'e been known to use some pretty absurd hyperbole. This is probably in your top two. Utterly senseless.

Originally Posted by Old School

You could have blasted him and been correct in your call, however, IMO, the only thing you would have proven is that it's all about you.

You're hung up on this "all about you" kick. It's not what he would have shown. He would have shown you shouldn't accuse a ref of cheating in a game. Period.

Originally Posted by Old School

You took it personal and it was not meant as a personal attack on your character as an official. It was an emotional outburst from a coach who was into it, as he should be.

Wrong. An emotional outburst is more like, "You've got to call something." Asking if you have something against the kid is personal, and it's been brewing for a while to come to that comment. It's not the first thing that comes to anyone's mind.

Originally Posted by Old School

My opinion, based on what the coach stated is not T worthy. Now, if he laced that comment with a few swear words, yea, you're getting it.

Swear words aren't necessary when he accuses you having something personal against his kids.

Originally Posted by Old School

However, I know exactly what you mean when you say those words bothered you. Welcome to officiating. Had a similar thing happened last night in a wreck league. Had to have a few afterwards to calm myself down before going home.

This, I believe.

[grunewar]

Philz - one thing I will say is that it's easy to be a Monday morning quaterback and say oh yeah, I would have T'd him up in a heart beat. Been there, done that.

But, as a newer ref, I feel for you and have second guessed myself at times. Most times I too say, I shoulda been more forceful and next time I will T em up. But, that event is gone, and we grow, learn, and become more seasoned.

I will say, in the past, I have been more tolerant, right or wrong, with the wreck league coaches, especially at the younger leagues, than I am with the older ages, MS, JV, and HS. But, as I gain more experience, watch, read, and learn more, I imagine that may change....... and I'll whack em more and become less tolerant!

[Junker]

It is a learning process. I've always been taught, and I now feel this way, that if you feel like you should have given after the game, you probably should have. As time goes on, you'll get a better feel for what you find unsportsmanlike and what you will put up with. Personally, and I think most on this board will agree, the lower level you work, the less unsportsmanlike conduct I'd put up with. The players are still learning the game. Coaches should be concerned with teaching the players, not questioning officials that are volunteering their time, or providing their service for a lower pay.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Junker

...the lower level you work, the less unsportsmanlike conduct I'd put up with.

Junk - so, the HIGHER the level I work, the MORE unsportsmanlike conduct I should put up with?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Look, youv'e been known to use some pretty absurd hyperbole. This is probably in your top two. Utterly senseless.

I don't know if I would go that far, I think everyone gets the point but you. The official took a DIRECT insult, that's like a direct unprotected body shot in boxing. On the battlefield, that's like getting hit with a bullet and continuing to fight, paving the way for the others. By not giving the coach a T, it preserved the integrity of the game, and also the integrity for the C. A double win. I didn't mention that. This guy knocked down two birds with one stone, one no-call. He hits the C with a T and half the parents are going to be piss at him for getting that T so late in a 1 point game. The ones that saw the play would have really been upset b/c the kid didn't get foul, he just fell on the floor. In HS or college, that could've ended his career. It turned out that the team still lost, so preserving that T saved the coaches face with his supporters. Okay, I'll back down on the metal but we got to give him a stripe for that one, he earned it here.

I read somewhere out here where a poster said, sometimes a no call, is the best call! Being that the team still lost, the no-call becomes even bigger, imo. You see, it would not have changed anything which means it was the best thing to do. The game ended normally which shows the protection for the game, which is what everybody wanted to see happen. Calling the T would have sour the normal ending, tainted the winning teams victory, got the coaches all upset with you, now you got a confrontation you might have to deal with, and the coach never swore. You know we already talked about that thin skin of yours. If you going to call a T on the coach late in the game, make sure he earns it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

I don't know if I would go that far, I think everyone gets the point but you. The official took a DIRECT insult, that's like a direct unprotected body shot in boxing. On the battlefield, that's like getting hit with a bullet and continuing to fight, paving the way for the others.

No, I got the analogy, and words can't describe how inappropriate it is. Taking an insult is nothing like taking a bullet. To even compare the two is insulting to Medal of Honor winners, who did a hell of a lot more than take an insult to get that award.

Originally Posted by Old School

By not giving the coach a T, it preserved the integrity of the game, and also the integrity for the C. A double win. I didn't mention that.

You were better off not mentioning it, because it's bogus. He didn't call it because he didn't want to "decide the game." He allowed the coach to question his integrity without consequence.

Originally Posted by Old School

This guy knocked down two birds with one stone, one no-call. He hits the C with a T and half the parents are going to be piss at him for getting that T so late in a 1 point game. The ones that saw the play would have really been upset b/c the kid didn't get foul, he just fell on the floor. In HS or college, that could've ended his career.

Who cares? It's 10 year old boys. What would happen to a hs coach or a college coach is beyond irrelevant. Making that comment is beyond the pale, it's beyond an emotional outburst. It's a coach using an emotional moment as an excuse to verbally attack an official and accuse him of a personal bias. HS and college coaches know better, so he wouldn't have to worry about it at that level.

Originally Posted by Old School

It turned out that the team still lost, so preserving that T saved the coaches face with his supporters.

Again with the irrelevant facts. I don't care who wins or loses. The fact that you didn't give a T to a deserving coach doesn't become ok just because he loses the game anyway. I'ts a non sequiter.

Originally Posted by Old School

Okay, I'll back down on the metal but we got to give him a stripe for that one, he earned it here.

Only in so far as he learned a lesson on how he wants to handle it next time. I'm not going to say every official should call this a T ever time; but I will and every decent official I know personally would as well. The only experienced guys I know who won't are strictly working ms and ymca ball.

Originally Posted by Old School

I read somewhere out here where a poster said, sometimes a no call, is the best call!

Apples and oranges. That refers to situations where there's really no advantage on a contact situation. It has nothing at all to do with sportsmanship issues.

Originally Posted by Old School

Being that the team still lost, the no-call becomes even bigger, imo. You see, it would not have changed anything which means it was the best thing to do.

This is just inane. It doesn't mean crap. It only means the official wants to just get his check and go home. (Note, I'm not saying that's why the OP didn't make this call. I'm saying it's how OS's reasoning comes across.)

Originally Posted by Old School

The game ended normally which shows the protection for the game, which is what everybody wanted to see happen. Calling the T would have sour the normal ending, tainted the winning teams victory, got the coaches all upset with you, now you got a confrontation you might have to deal with, and the coach never swore.

No, the game didn't end normally. It ended with a coach having called a ref's integrity into question without consequence. And I don't give a rat's a$$ if he swore or not here; except that adding an F-bomb might make it flagrant.

Originally Posted by Old School

You know we already talked about that thin skin of yours. If you going to call a T on the coach late in the game, make sure he earns it.

It's not about me. It's not about thick or thin skin. It's about preserving the respect for the game and the officials. I couldn't care less what he thinks about me; he could think I've taken a bribe to throw the game to the other team for all I care; but he's not going to accuse me of cheating. He can make his point, and express his emotions, another way. If he can't, he'd best find another hobby.

And to paraphrase another ref on this board, he'll be done coaching before I'm done officiating.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No, I got the analogy, and words can't describe how inappropriate it is. Taking an insult is nothing like taking a bullet. To even compare the two is insulting to Medal of Honor winners, who did a hell of a lot more than take an insult to get that award.

We're on a bb forum, try to keep your focus on that! It was used as an example, not a matter of fact, some referees are wound way too tight!

He didn't call it because he didn't want to "decide the game." He allowed the coach to question his integrity without consequence. Who cares? It's 10 year old boys. What would happen to a hs coach or a college coach is beyond irrelevant. Making that comment is beyond the pale, it's beyond an emotional outburst. It's a coach using an emotional moment as an excuse to verbally attack an official and accuse him of a personal bias. HS and college coaches know better, so he wouldn't have to worry about it at that level.

This is where I think you all need to take a step back. You have admitted that if this was a higher level game, you would have just given a warning, but since it's a lower level game, you call it differently. My position is why call a game 2 different ways, depending on what level you're working. If it's a technical at the lower level, then it's a technical at the higher level. Also, you are completely naive if you think this type of communications doesn't occur at the upper levels. It might even be worse at the upper levels because more is at stake. My position is to develop your tolerance level so that it's the same, no matter what lever you are working.

If you feel that this comment was a direct attack on your character. You need to get out more. Believe me, it gets much worse than that. Have you ever heard somebody say things in the heat of battle that they wish they didn't say? If you have ever coach a competitive game of bb, you will know that there are times when you say things out of emotion of the moment that you wish you didn't. And I just don't mean saying things that are out of line to the officials. BB is an emotional sport and as officials, we can't be emotional too, we can't get caught up in the heat of the moment. Being a good official requires balance in everything we do on the court, including dealing with emotions. I know that the majority of you disagree with this position. What this tells me is the majority of you will remain where you are at, because you think it's all about you. How did the one poster say it. "You let the coach insult YOU in front of everyone and get away with it. You just keep calling technicals everytime a coach says something to you that you don't like and see how far that takes you.