Fastest T in The West
 

Well, at least my fastest T in a game, ever.

Men's wreck league. It's tournament time and I'm working a loser's bracket game, so...the loser is done for the year.

Opening jump goes to red. White gets a steal, and throws it downcourt to their man streaking for the basket. The only other person in that end of the floor is a trailer from red. Streaker Man decides to get cute and rather than just going for the layup, he's going to get Trailer Dude in the air and draw a foul. Which he does, Trailer Dude goes airborne and comes down on Streaker Man. But in the process Streaker Man travels. My parnter calls it.

Streaker Man apparently doesn't care for my partner's call and proceeds to say to me, quite loudly and clearly, "That call was complete bull crap!" Easy T. Seemingly not the reaction he wanted, so he tries my partner to see if he gets a better response.

Did I mention that this league frowns quite seriously on player's earning Ts? First one of the season you're done for the rest of the game. Second one, you're done for that one and the next. Third, you're done for the year.

So, about 10 seconds into a must-win game, Streaker Man gets himself tossed.

Oh, did I mention that Streaker Man works for the city's rec department? :D

Nice T, I wish my refs would come down that hard in the men's league I run.

Had one in an 8th grade AAU game today. Same partner I had last week with my two Ts in two games. 2nd game today, and about half way through the third quarter I call their best post player for a travel on an otherwise decent looking move. Both coaches stand up and yell "that's not a travel."
I didn't bother with a stop sign or a warning light or a yield sign or anything. I ring up the assistant with the accompanying indirect on the head coach. Partner seat belts the coach, and all is well the rest of the game.

After the game, both coaches come up and chat, very cordially. Assistant coach apologizes saying he didn't realize he couldn't stand. I smile and nod and the head coach adds, "If I'd known I was going to have to sit, he'd have had a seat belt." Intense coaches, but they just needed a bit of guidance. :)

Aren't they ALL losers in rec league play? :D

Wow, that was a quick technical! What the hell you so upset about? You even admitted it was a decent move. Now you go and ruin it with a technical! That's emotion coming from the coaches and they are allowed to stand up for an exciting play. That's not trying to show you up. Just say no, it's a travel, put the ball in play. This is a perfect time to just put the hand up, stop sign, that's enough coaches! They run thru the stop sign, or rag on about it, then you whack em!

I used to, half jokingly, say that game fees for AAU tournaments only paid for my whistle, not for my game management skills. :D

I wasn't upset. Do I need to be upset to call a technical? If I wait until I'm upset before calling the T, I've let them get under my skin. No thanks.
Yes, they can stand to cheer their team. They cannot stand to jeer the officials.

Classic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cool:

I'm sorry Snags, you overreacted! They got under your skin. You got to get out more man, put the rulebook down, take a deep breath, relax, now repeat after me. "it ain't all about me!....":)

Wow, OS! You bait other officials as well as coaches and players!

You're welcome to your opinion. However, we've been told directly to control this behavior the way I did it. Also, regardless of what you say, he wasn't under my skin. But, again, if you want to think I let him get to me, that's your right. I know better, because I was there and I know how calm I was. The T worked, both coaches settled down the rest of the game and we had a very cordial chat afterwards (standard in AAU ball).

I'm beyond the point in my career where I make calls I can't justify, so feel free to ask questions and learn any lessons you can.

Oh, and one more small point to help you look less ignorant. If your'e going to shorten my screen name and talk to me like a friend, use a Q instead of a G. It's more accurate.

That's why he's a classic troll.

Nice try Snags with a "G", if he didn't get under your skin, why didn't you give him a warning? That's enough coach! Probably would have accomplished the same thing and got you even more respect without having to issue a technical. Since you want to talk about lessons learned. For the listening audience, is it better in your opinion, to address a potential problem situation using game management or just issuing a T? Better yet, if you're the assigner or coach, because let's face it, coaches have a voice too, who do you think will get the nod to move further, the quick draw T calling official or the official who applies good game management skills and doesn't have to issue a T to get his point across? Just thought I throw that in for food for thought. Not bad for a classic troll, uh!:D

Actually, it's just about right for a classic troll.

It makes no sense.

You really have no clue.

They're allowed to stand for an exciting play.

They aren't allowed to stand and yell at the official about a call they don't like.

Yea, but how do you know that? Snaqs said it was a decent move, which that in itself could have got the coaches up. Then he calls a traveling, and the coaches are already standing. They say "What!" " That's not a travel!" while standing. That's emotion. That's 1 + 1 = 2. That's elementary Holmes, in officiating terms. You should be able to anticipate that and if you don't, I question your ability in this area (conduct T's) as an official. And it's not that as much as your reaction to their reaction. We got the coaches being emotional, now with the quick T, we got the official being emotional. Not a lot of clear thought is being used here by either parties.

It's not good for the official to get emotional. Now repeat after me. It ain't all about me! It ain't all about me! :D

This was an opportunity for you to be cordial. No more, no less. Your call. <shrug>Perhaps that is the difference in our thinking. I'm giving the T when the behavior is over the line of unsporting; before they get under my skin. You wait until they're under your skin before giving the T. Which do you think the assigners prefer, someone who lets them get under his skin, or someone who nips the problem and never allows it to escalate? You assume the two are mutually exclusive. In my opinion, in this situation, game management called for a T. Had the assistant coach merely stood and made a quiet compaint, or had he been consistently standing to coach, I'd have reminded the head coach of the rule and we would have moved on. However, by standing up and yelling at me, he moved to the point where the T became the proper and most effective call.
Here's some advice. Go to wikipedia.org and and look up "False Dichotomy" and "Strawman." The two of them pretty much define how your debate style. Now, to "answer" your question, how about the official who knows and applies and enforces the rules. Coaches don't have any say around here, especially in AAU. Regardless, I'd rather have a reputation for fair rule enforcement than a reputation for being willing to take all kinds of sh!t from coaches.I'm sure you can do better.

Yup, it was a decent move, all except for that traveling part. No, it wasn't such an oustanding move it had the two coaches up. It was "decent." No more. They didn't get up until I called the travel; at which point they're both screaming at me.

Again, I didn't get all emotional by calling the T. It was calm, the head coach compained briefly and asked what the T was for. I explained it and proceeded to administer the free throws while my partner explained to him the benefits of coaching from his chair.

I'm not sure why you are so hung up on thinking I was emotional just because I called a conduct T.

He's hung up on it because he's a chicken-sh!t who won't call a T on a coach even if the coach is dropping f-bombs on him...he'll use his superior Jedi-like game management skills to get that coach clamed right down...and if that doesn't work THEN he will call the big dramatic T and yell "THAT'S ON YOU, COACH!!"...unlike the rest of us who just deal with things as they come up and move on - just like you did Snaq...

Oh really, after you made this statement.

So, you're one of those guys that think his sh!t don't stink!

It's called having thick skin you moron. If you're going to be a good official, you're going to have to toughen up a little bit here. Just as clear as the words I'm writing. If you pull that on Bobby Knight and his crew or some other DI coaches. You won't be working no more of their games because the cocah is going to call your assigner and tell him, anybody but you, and here's the other true part. You will never know this conversation took place but you will notice the next year, you didn't get as many assignments. I'm just being real.

Oh, you will have a reputation alright. That reputation is you are a thin-skin official who you better not say to much too or he'll T you up. Then they will say, is OS available? I'd rather have OS because he's more into officiating the game then asserting his authority, plus, he understands the difference between emotional outbursts on a play and personal attacks on his officiating. If you think coaches don't have any say, just think about this. Who approves the rules that we are govern by? And yes, even in the AAU.

Have a nice day...and remember, don't shoot the messenger.

My fastest T this year was last night. Less than a minute in the game A1 knocks ball out of bounds off of B1 opposite table. Ball goes to A1, coach B freaks out. 7/8th championship game. I'm standing by B's bench next trip and he's in my ear and says "This is the championship game don't cheat the kids". Whack! I told him if he had a question I would be happy to address it at the appropiate time (i.e. why did A get the ball on that inbounds play). I would have told you it clearly went off your player but your angle at some 60ft away wasn't good. However, suggesting we might cheat you in some manner is unexceptable, and my partner and I won't listen to that.

If you "won't be working no more of their games" then you will be working more of their games so that's a good thing.

BTW - can a "cocah" really use a phone?

I think Old School needs to go back to school.

Old School - I have asked you some direct questions several times before, and you have apparently chosen to ignore these questions. I think it's fair to everyone involved for you to either answer these questions truthfully, or stop posting your opinions.

1. Do you officiate basketball?
2. What level(s) do you currently work? YMCA, grade school, high school, D-3, D-2, D-1 college, NBA?
4. How long have you worked at these levels?
5. Do you have a current copy of the NFHS rule book?

If I am going to have my house re-wired, or if I'm going in to have knee surgery, I'm checking on the credentials of the person on whose opinions I am relying upon. In your case, you have posted many opinions that are well outside the norm in officiating circles, as well as many incorrect rule references and interpretations. If we knew of your actual credentials, it might lend some credence to your opinions. If you refuse to give us that information, you will continue to be looked upon as someone who knows very little about basketball officiating, and you will continue to get many negative responses on this forum, as you should.

Have a nice day.

I was asked to coordinate (and work) one year for a church league. I said I would do it provided there were rules such as this for the league. They balked. The next year, they came begging me to do it and said I could write any sportsmanship rule I wanted. So, what we did was this: first T: out a FULL half (i.e. rest of that game if first half; rest of game and first half of next if second); second T: out a FULL game plus rest of that one; third, done for year.

I never had any T's in my games and don't think we had any all year long.

No, I was referring to the way you were coming across. :D Awe, now you're just projecting.If you honestly think Knight's assistant coaches are going to pull anything like what this assistant did, you're not really paying attention. And Knight's had his share of Ts, but I'm guessing the refs that called them didn't feel any repercussions from them. But, it's a guess, so if you have concrete evidence to the contrary you're welcome to impart that knowledge. First off, you can't possibly think I'd officiate a major conference D-1 game the same way I officiate a 14u AAU game. No one is that obtuse. Secondly, I'll bet if you calm down, keep your emotions in check, and type more slowly, you could avoid these silly spelling errors.
I honestly think you're smarter than this, but I can only hold out for so long.

Every time I read one of OS posts and the replies it generates, it makes me wonder if I should go see a Doctor.:confused: because I start laughing so much I think I have weakened my bladder and I pee a bit each time....:eek:

Here, let me help:

http://images.despair.com/products/d...onsistency.jpg

Thanks, you're a pal. :)

No problem. I'm here to help. ;)

This is a good technical, no question asked, and "you can remain seated the rest of the game!" Notice the attack on your character, integrity and also the fact that he went down the court and back. Big difference. This is the ones you want to get Snaqs, this is like hitting a home run. What a setup! Perfect pitch, perfect swing, WHACK!!!!

You're welcome for the laughts, just don't hurt yourself. Laughter is good for the sole, and you guys wanted me kicked out. See how much joy I have bought to the board!

Fisrt of all, I've answered the questions about my credentials, 2nd, I can live with that because after all, it's just my opinion! Have a nice day to you, too...

If you blow a damn traveling call like you did, you will hear it from them, or if they thought you blew it, you would hear it from them. There's no difference in coaches responses at any level if they think you blew a call.

Why the hell not! Okay, so now you're saying if it's DI you won't make that call. That's what I was trying to tell you all alone. If you're not going to call if at the upper level, don't call it at the lower level. Give the coaches the same amount of respect, especially if you kicked the call.

Good one! I got a good laugh out of this one.

Ok, humor me then. I missed the answers, so can you answer them again, right here?

1. Do you officiate basketball?
2. What level(s) do you currently work? YMCA, grade school, high school, D-3, D-2, D-1 college, NBA?
3. How long have you worked at these levels?
4. Do you have a current copy of the NFHS rule book?

His answers were bolded in your quote on his post.

I read the posts on this board often but have never posted. But now I feel I must. OldSchool makes me laugh as much as he does all of you. I am sure I am not alone on this but I thought I'd bring it anyway since it happens alot. Do you all notice that when a question is asked of him, he gives an answer only not to the question in its entirety? Example. When he was just asked about wht levels he officiates he answered yes to all except the NBA. Problem is when he pasted the original question he change the question. It went from D-III, D-II, D-I college, to just college. So now I want some more humor and I want to know which levels of college and which side, men or women. No one else here seems to have a problem ansering questions and getting feedback.......but OldSchool.

Yep, you're right. I was looking for them in his answer following the quote.

First off, I didn't blow the call. Had I blown it, I might have given them some leeway. I say "might" because I don’t know what I would have done since that's not how it happened.
I'm saying I don't know if I'd make that call at D1. I don't work D1 and I haven't had a discussion with D1 assigners that would tell me how they want this called. I do know my assigner wants this addressed, and when it gets to the point where it was in my game, he wants the T called. Let's just say there was more discussion in meetings this year about Ts that should have been called but weren't than Ts that were called but shouldn't have been (none).

I'm also saying, and you seem to have missed this part, that D1 assistant coaches wouldn't do an outburst like that. They can keep themselves under control. At this level, they don’t act like fans. Oddly enough, AAU coaches can keep themselves under control, too. I know, because I've seen them do it. This particular assistant coach was a gem the rest of the game; doubtful that it was because he thought I was reffing better. His head coach is actually quite good at asking questions during dead balls and time outs. Every other coach I've had after giving them a T in a previous game has controlled himself.

Also, AAU ball is not the same as D1 ball. Sportsmanship is more valued (at least around here) and expected to be enforced. I'm not going to tailor my game based on what I think I might call if I was officiating D1; that's ludicrous.

Old School, as worldbefree noted, you deleted the references as to which level of college you've worked. The implication in your answer is that you currently work all levels of college, including NCAA D-1. Is that correct? Since you also said you currently work all levels under NBA, is it true that you have worked both an NCAA D-1 game, and a grade school game recently? What college conference(s) do you work? If you feel uncomfortable giving that information out in a public setting, PM me and I will absolutely promise not to give it to anyone else. I will, however, be happy to become your ally if you can prove to me that you do currently work NCAA and HS basketball.

Also, why do you keep ducking the question about the NFHS rule books? It's a simple yes or no answer. The more you keep ducking the answer, or finding "cute" responses to the question, the more people believe you really don't have a copy. Which then leads to the issue of your credability when it comes to rules and opinions. I can sit a room full of doctors, and give my opinions on surgical techniques. And I can say I have a right to my opinion. But how much credence will they give me, given I have not even seen a medical textbook, much less studied one? We all know the answer to that. My opinion in that case is wothless, no matter how much I might feel I'm correct. That situation applies to your opinions here as well. You certainly have a "right" to express them, but without credability, they are worthless.

Okay, I'm going to let you off the hook. If they want that called in your games, then you should call it. I commend your AAU assigners for wanting this called because these games can get out of control quick, mainly because of the uneducated coaches to coaching.

Actually, if you're lucky enough, AAU ball is very competitive to DI if you get to work some of the bigger kids like 19U and 17U DI National teams. These games are very very good, the coaches are very very good, and the next year, you may see a lot of these players playing DI ball. So don't go putting down AAU too much.

Also, I'm going to give you some advise. Feel free to toss it in the trash after reading it. There should be no difference in the way you work a AAU game or any game for that matter, then the way you would work a college DI game. If you aspire to work DI college, every game you work must be like this. That's why you hear a lot of officials that work these upper level games say they don't want to work the lower level games anymore because it ruins there mechanics. Me and you, we got to work these lower level games to get there. It's important to tailor your game towards the highest level and then work it, work to get there. That way, if you where to be so lucky to get DI, you don't have to change anything major in your game.

Let me answer. This has already come out before anyway.

1) Not by the usual definition of "officiating", which includes training, rules knowledge, certification, etc. He is a rec-league traffic cop/babysitter.
2) Casual rec leagues <b>only</b>.
3) Per one of his old posts, over 10,000 games in 15 years. Do the math.
4) Not only does he not have a current copy of the FED rule or case book or manual, he has <b>never</b> had a copy of any of those publications.

Why are y'all wasting so much time on this clueless troll?:confused:

I dunno. I guess I was afraid to be lumped in with those dang French if I just gave up now.

Sounds like somebody jealous...

Will somebody hand me a towel. Quickly! I've got to get this Diet Pepsi off my monitor. :D

Sounds like somebody ain't denying any of what I posted either.....

Is that you on the cover, M?
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/...fsurrender.jpg

Nope, that's not me. I was on last month's issue issue; the one with the article, "101 Uses for Cheese Other than Eating."

LOL!! This has made the entire thread worthwhile!! :)

10,000 games in 15 years, excuse me! Oh, and whether or not I have a rulebook has nothing to do with the Fast T in the west so you can go on and on about that.

I just did and...um...yikes?

10,000/15 = 666

AAAHHHH!! Old School is the devil!! :eek:

Yup, 10000 games in 15 years for the 10 different associations that you belong to.....

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...680#post374680

And all that without ever opening a rulebook either.:D

After reading that thread, I want to know how to contact that national aau assigner. :)