Did anyone see the end of the A&M vs Texas game tonight.
 

Texas was up 96=93 with 5 seconds left. Law from A&M comes into the front court with 1.4 secs left a player from Texas grabs him from behind. Looked like an Intentional foul, but wasnt called. Did anyone see this? Thoughts welcome.

I did...and I'm an Aggie and that kind of calling pisses me off. This game is the Oklahoma-Oregon game of Basketball. Any idea where I file a complaint about such actions.

No. No one is going to listen to a fan.

Peace

I don't care if they are not gonna listen...I'm gonna fight it even if i have to send 20 emails a day...i know the game stands but i want action taken against those referees cause there is no way that intentional could be missed...He grabbed Law's jersey with both hands for Christ sake.

Now can we get some reasonable replys here? Just wanted to know if any fellow officials saw the situation. Guess a few fans did.:D

Ok I understand that and im sorry for the aggresive behavior however with my first post i did not realize the entire funcionality of this forum...i was just looking for someone to talk about it with and maybe find a complaint device so that I can at least feel a little better knowing I took action...however I do not believe that the responses I revceived were required...a simple "This is forum for officials to discuss calls" would have gotten rid of me a lot faster than snide and caustic remarks that I could hear from a child so I will apologize for being rude (if you have every been frustrated you should understand) but maybe next time you will think about your responses the next time an aggravated fan stumbles upon this site while looking for an outlet

Thanks and Goodbye.

All I can say is welcome to the internet. People are not going to give you a perfect response. It is not like you were nice either. ;)

Peace

I was half watching the game. Unfortunately I did not see the entire play and I even missed the replay. I guess I would have to ask, what happen first. I heard Fran say this was likely an intentional foul, but I would have to ask, what happen first? Is it possible the second action was worse than the first contact?

Peace

Cmon easy guys. Lets all be professionals in here. I do have admit I did enjoy reading the arguments. Whether it was intentional or not, fans can complain all they want. It's up to the conference supervisor to take action. I have to say that I really doubt that they will listen to the fans since they don't have a safe in this profession at all levels

This is not about professionalism. This guy came here to rag on officials. Then when he got some sarcastic responses (which happens often on this site by several people) he started telling people to F-off when they did not get the answer they wanted. This site is not an official place to answer all officiating issues. This is where individuals decide to respond to each other.

Peace

Tommy,

I really hesitate to jump in here because I don't want to openly disagree with you twice in one night. I've got no beef with you and I'm really not trying to get in your face. In fact I used to feel exactly the same way you do. I bristled at the way such people were treated here by people I otherwise respected. I was astonished and embarassed at their behavior. It seemed unfair, unfriendly, and unprovoked.

Then I lived through a few years of the annual parade of trolls during the playoffs and March Madness. In the next month they will come out of the woodwork and infest our board. They don't want rational explanations. They are in no mind to be fair, even-handed, or to learn. They are here only to gripe about how, in their completely biased opinion, their team was unfairly treated. Disagreeing with them, no matter how well-intentioned or -deserved, only invites their vitriol and venom.

I have finally come to agree with others that the best policy is to get rid of them as quickly as possible. There are thousands of places such trolls can go to whine. This is one of the only places we can come to talk officiating and I've become very protective of it. Letting them hang around is like allowing the losing team's fans into your post-game conference.

Just my opinion.

I wasn't going to post again but I feel I must. I am sorry I was rude...I know what you mean about fans that only gripe and don't care about reality...the truth is I was so frustrated by what I think is a bad call that I overreacted...and unfortunately ya'lls haven was the first place I found. I mentioned earlier that I didn't realize what exactly this forum is about and that was the truth. In my frustration I was looking for anywhere to vent and this was the first place I found. I'm sorry for violating ya'lls safe haven and wish ya'll to know that. Also, it would be very interesting to see what other refs think of calls and that is why I have come back...I wanted to see what people were saying about the play. I do feel though..and you can take this or leave it...that sarcastic responses may not be the best way to get rid of aggravated fans as most of the time (my case included :D ) it usually leads to them becoming more aggravated (like me). So I guess the main point of this response is to apologize for my uneccesary behavior and just to get ya'lls opinion because as many of you have found out I'm not an official;). So ya'll have a nice day and I am going to work on my temper problems and try to treat ya'll with the respect ya'll deserve instead of ragging on ya'll everytime I feel you made bad call.

Well stated. Thank pulling this U2 out of the fire Crew Chief! :)

No prob. It's what we U99's do ;)

LOL! :D :D

I happened to be at a meeting this evening, so I recorded the game. After watching the final foul a few times I have to say that it clearly meets the definition of an intentional personal foul and it is a shame that Larry Rose, who was the Trail official tableside, only called a common foul.

Hank Nichols will likely be putting this play on a training video and might even send out a bulletin. He can't be happy after watching that clip.

Yes they can. But not here. We don't want *dexter* fanboys here and we don't tolerate *dexter* fanboys here. It's that simple, like it or not.

If they have a legitimate question, fine. If they just want to whine about the officials like this goober was, then screw 'em.

As I watched the play last night, I too thought intentional foul. After watching the replay there were two defensive players, one in front and the one trailing who grabbed the player/jersey. What was never clear is who got called for the foul. The officials out on the play was to call a block on the defender in front of the play before the grab occurred. If that is not what happened then they blatantly missed an intentional foul. TV never reported who the foul was called on.

It will not go on the training tape because the NCAA does not use plays from regular season games normally. It might go on a bulletin though.

Peace

I believe a common recourse in the Big XII, is for the President of the afflicted school, to send a letter to somebody, demanding the game be declared "no contest"

I just looked
 

at the box score, it appears that A&M only shot 65% or so from the stripe....so while the questionable call looks bad and comes at an inoportune time, that free throw percentage isn't going to win a lot of games :D

I will comment and give my 2 cents of whaT I think may happen. IF A&M feels that a unjust call was made? An official protest will be filed and the committee will review and then take proper action. whether correct call or not it's done and probably a good lesson for those officials. I find that what may be obvious to fans and people watching on TV, it's toatlly different what we as officials see on the court. IMO

A lesson for the officials (?)...these are three big time guys

Officials: John Higgins, Larry Rose, Mike Wood

I watched the game and would have a hard time second guessing any official in a split second call like that....it could have been called intential and yet I see/work games all the time where a player (in a need to foul situation) doesn't make the cleanest attempt at the ball in trying to foul, and a personal foul -- rather than a flagrant is called.
I just think its difficult to second guess an instantaneous call like that.

I would comment on two things however. The game seemed more physical with fewer fouls called than in the several UT or A&M games I've watched this season. In fact, in two HS playoff games I worked in the past ten days, at least one of our group mentioned something to the effect of letting the kids play -- I guess that means playoff bball is meant to be called differently.

And in spite of the pace of play, I'm not sure I remember a guard being called for traveling or a post player called for 3 seconds. In watching the game, those calls seemed to be there on a pretty regular basis.

Again, does that mean playoff bball should be called significantly differently?

First off, apology accepted.
Second, regarding the portion quoted above:
Getting rid of "trolls" is really kind of a secondary goal.

Let me explain with an analogy. I know people who own land/homes in rural areas that are infested with prairie dogs. To keep the animals away from the house, one in particular will get out one of his high powered rifles and shoot them when they get too close. Shooting a couple of them keeps the rest at a distance.

For some (and some will find this apalling), it's also good target practice and entertainment.

Many refer to the annual influx of fans into this board as trolls. I prefer to call them prairie dogs.

I thought it was an intentional foul too. But, how many times do we as officials not call the intentional. We are engrained to let the kids decide the game and sometimes we bend the role as not to be the bad guy. It was a smart play by Texas. Take a gamble. Most refs will do what they did. Call the common foul. Watch games and ask officials - most will say that I knew it was intentional but didn't want to call it.

they are human, we all make mistakes. do you think these guys don't make mistakes? I have not seen the game but so I can't comment if there was a mistake or not just generalizing. we can't let any Fans come into this thread and blanket their frustration to all the officials on this web.IMO

From a biased observer:

Yes it was intentional by rule, but my experience in coaching is that a lot of room is granted in these late game situations by the officials.

The longhorn fans are mad at the official who administered the last free throw that Law missed on purpose, because they feel that he was still in the lane at the time the "shot" was taken and Atchley (#32 for Texas) couldn't get around the ref to block out the guy who ultimately got the rebound and the shot off at the buzzer. Any thoughts on this? The official was out in front of the backboard when he threw the ball to the shooter/Law for the free throw. Since we won, I don't care; just interested in knowing the procedure. Obviously it was a rare and smart play that caught everyone in burnt orange and white by surprise.

Thanks.

Go Horns!!!

I'd like to hear some debate on this. Please don't take me asking about it for criticizing these guys because it isn't. So here's the statement.

1) The rules should be tweaked so that strategic fouls should be allowed with a lesser penalty than what is charged for an intentional.

They are allowed with the normal penalty. The best strategy I've heard is a coach telling his players to get the ball even if you have to foul to do it.
You're more likely to get an actual steal; and you're more likely to actually get the foul you're trying to get. And, you're far less likely to get an intentional foul.

I'm clearly biased, but it was also clearly an intentional foul.

what????
 

well "evidently" not or we wouldn't be having this discussion LOL :D

But many times they don't go for the ball and it's not called. It's not called because officials are taught to be very careful about calling intentionals late in close games. So many that otherwise would be intentional are not called that way. So is a rule change in order to reflect the way it's actually called. It seems the POE approach isn't working. The rulebook official will call them but the game management official won't so does something need to be done to make it so that everyone ois on the same page. just an opinion.

Are you suggesting a middle ground in the rules?

I don't have a dog in the fight but a two handed jersey grab should be an intentional foul.

I guess I'm suggesting that it's talked about as I don't know that I'm smart enough to suggest anything. : > ) It just seems like something that needs to be hashed out some more. Maybe a good comparison would be the elbow rule. It used to be a technical when an elbow was thrown with no contact. But refs sometimes would call nothing because they thought the penalty was too harsh. So they changed the penalty from a technical to a violation in order to have the action more consistently penalized. In other words they changed the rule to better match what the officials were thinking and doing. And rightly so I think in that situation. Now no one has any trouble calling the thrown elbow as it gives the official a "minimal" penalty to fall back on while still retaining the option of upgrading it if he wants. This might be a similar situation. With these late in the game fouls it's taught to error on the side of caution when calling the intentional because the penalty is more harsh than a regular foul. A good thought but it creates problems when we get too cute with it.

Welcome to the forum. We certainly invite you to stick around if you wish to learn about the rules and discuss them. However, as you've as you found out, this isn't a place to complain about the officiating. Again, welcome to the forum...hopefully you'll stick around and learn a few things.

If that is your opinion of most refs, then that is sad. I certainly am not one of those that is too scared to make the tough call when it is the right call just because it will be unpopular.
I consider the people that fall into your characterization to be weak, and I believe that they should quit officiating.

It's a coaching issue, and if there are officials who won't call this, then they need to have their hands slapped. But they won't. Regardless, coaches who don't do this right are taking a risk.
How many times do you see kids trying to swipe the arm of the dribbler just to get a foul called? When they do that, the miss about 55.783740184% of the time. Then, they get frustrated we aren't calling a foul and start hugging and shoving to make sure there's a foul.
If they make an overly agressive attempt for the ball, they're less likely to get the two worst results; nothing or an intentional foul.
Should the rules committee make a change because coaches aren't good at using this strategy?

I don't know what the middle ground would be. A third free throw, perhaps? Or maybe one free throw and the ball? How about awarding two points to the offended team and giving the ball to the fouling team as if the basket had been made?

_________________________________________________

Don't go there. Just don't go there at all!

That sounds ominous. Do I need to be looking over my shoulder? : > )

[QUOTE=Snaqwells]When they do that, the miss about 55.783740184% of the time.

Where in the H-E-DOUBLE LL you come up with that percentage?:D

My sources are classified. ;)

Our Association had a pre-Playoff meeting where we were told if you hear a Coach directly tell his players to foul then it was to be called intentional. When I questioned the fact that just telling the kids to foul does not fit the definition of Intentional, I was told that most times the foul will not be a legal attempt to play the ball and it is to be called as such. I just had to agree to disagree and do what they wanted.

FYI, I have only had to make this call 2 times in 12 games. Each time the coach would call out a color like RED and his player would run up and foul the opposition. Once was on a ball carrier and one was just a blatent body check to a girl running up the floor.

That was the FED interp a few years ago. It's been changed.

The most interesting thing is EVERY coach wants this called intentional...except if it's against his/her team!

as is the case with traveling, double dribble, pushes and charges :D

OK, I watched it this morning. Even one of the TV Announcers, I belive Fran Fraschilla (sp), said, "I would called it." (intentional)

Oh, the announcer said it?? In that case, it must've been intentional! :rolleyes:

If anyone missed this and wants another shot at seeing it, the game is being shown as an instant classic on ESPN Classic right now.

That's very disappointing to hear that you are being instructed to call it that way.
As Bob said this interpretation by the FED has changed. You should show your association leaders the following:

2005-06 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
3. Intentional Fouls.
B. Late in the game.
...
There is a right way and a wrong way to foul. Coaches must instruct their players in the proper technique for strategic fouling. "Going for the ball" is a common phrase heard, but intentional fouls should still be called on players who go for the ball if it is not done properly. Conversely, a coach who yells, "Foul!" instructions to his or her team does not mean the ensuing foul is "automatically" an intentional foul – even though it is a strategic foul designed to stop the clock. Coaches, officials, players, fans and administrators must accept fouling as a legitimate coaching strategy.


The old NFHS policy that has been superceded by the above came from the 2000-01 season.

NFHS 2000-01 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
Intentional Fouls - Excessive Contact
...
Acts that MUST be deemed intentional include:
• grabbing a player from behind;
• wrapping the arms around a player;
• grabbing a player away from the ball;
• grabbing or shoving a player from behind when an easy basket may be scored;
• grabbing/holding a player by the jersey in order to impede their progress;
• when coach/player says "watch, we're going to foul;" and
• excessive contact on a player attempting a shot.