Player leaves court
 

Was watching a GV playoff game the other evening and came across an unusual situation. A1 commits a foul on B1 and gets called for it. This leaves A1 visibly unhappy with the call. It was a bonus situation, so as the players where lining up for the free throws, A1 simply walks off the floor and sits down at the bench. No subs or anything. The officials saw this and actually appeared to be giving her a little extra time to get back on the floor before the ball was administer to the free-throw shoot. As soon as the ball was given to the shooter, the trail immediately signaled the technical foul.
Now, I can’t seem to find in the rule book exactly what went down here (I’m a rookie so can’t find things quickly yet). But was the T for leaving the court, or unsporting moping or for the coach not having 5 players on the court or something else. Also, if she would have returned before the ball was administered to the shooter would all have been well? Thanks.

Mostly likely and easiest to justify, it was for leaving the court for an unauthorized reason. It could have also been for unsportsmanlike conduct. Either way, it doesn't matter.
It sounds to me like they gave her a chance to correct herself. They could have called the T as soon as she sat down, but gave her a little more rope.

In this case the T would have to be for unsporting conduct. It certainly does matter as leaving the floor for an unauthorized reason is NOT a technical foul; it is a violation and that rule only applies during a live ball. In the situation presented the player left during a dead ball.

I believe for starters leaving the court is just a violation, not a T. D

efinitely unsporting behavior and "T"able!

Dammit! I got them mixed up again. It's failure to return after leaving for an authorized reason that's a T. That may be what they gave it to her for. My bad!

I doubt that is why the T was given since this player was not OOB for an authorized reason and thus did not delay returning after being legally OOB. :D

Now I'm just messing with you, Adam. :)

I don’t think anyone authorized her to leave the court. She just left and sat down. She still hadn’t returned to the court even after the officials gave the ball to the shooter. So, wouldn’t that be a T situation?

"authorized reason" is pretty vague, but Nevada is right. Pouting isn't considered an authorized reason, but it wasn't a live ball so the violation isn't in force. However, hitting her for not promptly returning to the court is an easy way to give the T. That said, it's a pretty easy call for a veteran official when she's doing it to express her disapproval with the call.

Adam,
My point is that what is in red is not a technical foul in this situation by the book. The rules simply don't justify it.

My opinion is that what is in green is the right way to go.

For Vinski,
If a team accidently plays with four there is no prescribed penalty in the NFHS books. If the team attempts to purposely play with only four when five are available that is not allowed.

Please forgive me if I appear to be beating this, but let me pose this question another way. What if it was a different player not involved in the foul and she was just confused or tired? In other word there was no sportsmanship issue here at all. Would this have been just a violation and then team B would simply get the ball after the free throws were taken? What if she never returned to the court? I know; lots of what ifs. Thanks again for your replys.

I see what you're saying.

The instant A1's tushie hit the bench, she was getting a TF for unsportsmanlike behavior. End of story.

MTD, Sr.

I am not clear on the final answer to this one. I am not sure, by rules, why the T was called at the time it was called. is the decision an unsportsman T? I would understand a Delay T perhaps at throw in and not having 5 players, but they made the ball live to the shooter, then called the T.

Would you please explain once more what you believe the call is for this?
Thanks

Regardless of the T situation, do not administer the free throw with fewer than 5 players on the court unless they don't have enough players. Not saying the T was incorrect nor am I saying I wouldn't have issued one, but depending on what happened, I might say to the coach, "I need a sub if she's out" and see what happened.

I wasn't there and I can't tell you exactly what that official was thinking. All I can do is tell you the rules. So here goes:

It is my opinion that the only correct justification for a T in this situation is an unsporting foul under 10-3-7a.

If the calling official charged the T for the team not having five players on the court or for the player leaving the court for an unauthorized reason or for the player failing to return by the time the ball was made live, then the official was wrong by rule in his reasoning for the T.

If a player is confused and leaves the floor during a dead ball and the team now only has four players, there is no penalty in the NFHS rules book unless that player returns to the court during playing action. If the team waits until the next dead ball to put another team member into the game, there should be no penalty (either violation or technical foul) because there is no rule which an official can point to in order to justify making a call.
The following casebook play supports what I am writing:

10.3.3 SITUATION B: After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and A5 sprints directly onto the court without reporting or without being beckoned. RULING: A technical foul is charged to A5 for returning during playing action even though A5 had not been replaced.

I follow that. I was curious about Rule 8-1-5 regarding any player that is not the free thrower and does not occupy a lane must be behind the free throw line extended.... but I do not know if there is a penalty for failure to abide.

My opinion is that that only applies to those who are on the court (inbounds).

Now if a player decided to go stand OOB under the basket during an opponent's FT, I would probably charge a T for unsporting conduct.

gotcha....
I think TexasAggie has the simpliest answer. If we do that, all of the other what ifs go away. Believe me, I have a few others in my head...

Exactly. And all you have to say is "unsportsmanlike conduct" too. No need for paralysis by analysis(commonly known as "death by overthinking")..

JR:

You know me, why use ten words and one picture when I can you 10,000 words and 1,000 pictures. :D

MTD, Sr.

Yabut, Mark.........

You're not doing that in this particular situation. You're just calling a common-sense technical foul without analyzing that call to death. Gotta give you the proper credit for that.

JR:

You should record this date as one of my shortest posts ever.

MTD, Sr.

I would tell the coach: " Coach she just took herself off the court. Either you make the sub for her now or she will be charged a technical foul for actions."

That's just me though.

So you would ignore unsporting conduct merely because the coach is subbing that player out of the game?

Or perhaps you have a different reason for charging this player with a technical foul. If so, let's hear it.

Would you still say the same thing to the coach if A2 was the player who left the court and sat on the bench?

Just trying to understand your thinking on this one.

This is off the original topic, but I have a question about this part... I was recently coaching a game where the other team only had 6 players - one had twisted an ankle and was layed up on the bench - a second player was poked in the eye, and had to leave the game - they had no sub for her - coach said he was going to play with 4... when I realized that he didn't have anyone else to play at that time, I called for the official to hold on, and I called one of my players off the floor...

by rule, was I not allowed to do this? official's never said anything to me, just let it happen (of course they knew that I was doing this in an attempt to be fair)...

Yes, by rule you were not allowed to do this.

You did something which was very sporting, but not allowed by the rules. Last year a coach out here instructed two of his players to just stand at the division line, but remain on the court, in a similar situation when the opponent was down to only three.

NUMBER OF PLAYERS REQUIRED
3.1.1 SITUATION: After six players have been disqualified, Team A has only four who are eligible to continue in the game as players. In a gesture of fair play, the coach of Team B indicates a desire to withdraw a player so that each team will have four players on the court. RULING: This is not permissible. Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available. If no substitute is available, a team must continue with fewer than five players. When only one player remains to participate, that team shall forfeit the game unless the referee believes this team still has an opportunity to win the game.

I would. Now if she someone else does it again, then we have a tech. It's a playoff game and that could be a situation where it could come down because of that tech. Was the act flagrant? No. Was it stupid? Yes. Would you want to be the one that's in the locker room with the evaluators explaning a technical foul because the player left court cause she was pissed? If you can prevent it then get her off and force that on the coach as his warning for the players conduct. Next time they do it you have a direct technical towards any from unsportsmanlike conduct. This is just my thought though.

Bring on the evaluator. I'd rather be known for taking care of bidness rather than letting stuff slide. If I'm working a playoff game, it's because I've been seen taking care of bidness all year long. Why would I change my MO because it's a playoff game? And what about the next unsporting action? Will you call that one? If so, that player then deserves an explanation about why she got the T and the first girl didn't. If not, how far down the toilet will the game get before you act? And what is this business about "force that on the coach as his warning for the players conduct"? Since when do we give coaches a warning for player behavior? What's your rules backing for that? :confused:

Sorry I don't mean warn the coach. I meant I would tell the coach what I could have done and next time it happens it's a technical foul. This is for a high school game. This kind of reminds of the situation in the ACC tournament about 2 years ago, where personal didn't get off the floor in time and a technical foul was issued. The official was correct in with the technical foul but he got suspended for the rest of the tournament for issuing it because it didn't fit the game. I know this is a different situation then the one stated but overall I'm trying to say if it fits issue it if it doesn't why get yourself into trouble.

I guess we have different philosophies on this.

yes we do but your idea makes sense. That's why we are here, to learn from each other. So the idea you have I will try it in the off season if it happens and learn from it. It's all good.

Tommy,
You need to rethink this one. Do you always penalize unsporting behavior the 2nd time it happens? Do you allow each team to act up once before being penalized? Telling the coach what you could have done, but aren't doing is a really poor idea. He is going to wonder what else you are doing or have done during the game that isn't right.
I think that you should penalize unsporting conduct when it occurs.

The ACC situation was for water on the court following a time-out and a previous warning had been given. The ACC coordinator was roundly criticized for not backing his official. The official had been instructed to make that call and did his job, then they threw him under the bus. If I recall he went deep into the NCAA tournament that season. Elite 8, I believe.

Regarding that T in the ACC tournament on March 13th, 2004: both of us were right.


"It's hard to pinpoint exactly how N.C. State lost to Maryland 85-82 Saturday in the semifinals of the ACC Tournament, how the Pack lost a 19-point halftime lead.
Wolfpack coach Herb Sendek couldn't do it. The Wolfpack players couldn't do it.
...


Then there was the technical foul -- one of the most unusual in ACC Tournament history. With State leading 53-43 with 14:56 to play, the Pack was called for a delay-of-game technical just after a television timeout.
Maryland turned it into a four-point possession, with Chris McCray hitting two technical foul shots and Gilchrist then scoring on a reverse. In a game decided by three points, it became a critical call.
"It shocked me," State's Marcus Melvin said. "The technical gave [Maryland] another burst of energy and they used all of it to their advantage."
Maryland scored 10 straight points to tie the score as the Pack missed three shots.
The technical was called by lead official Larry Rose. Sendek said he was told a Wolfpack manager was wiping water off the court in front of the State bench as the Terps were about to inbound the ball.
The official explanation from the refereeing crew was "unauthorized personnel from the N.C. State bench coming onto the floor during a live-ball situation." Sendek said the bench had been warned earlier in the game. Sendek refused further comment on the call."

It's interesting to note that the NFHS felt so strongly opposite to the ACC coordinator on this situation that it was added as a new rule this year.

I like your thought process and it has made me think. FYI in my college game if it happened I got something. High school I would think about it for a second. Thanks for the help you showed me a different side that makes a lot of sense. I appreciate it. Seriously....

BTW this official was Larry Rose. The same official who did not call the intentional personal foul in the Texas/Texas A&M game.

What happened to making the tough call in the crunch, Larry? Have all those spineless people who espouse the mantra of "let the players decide the game" finally gotten to you? Please say it ain't so!

You're young. You have years to hash these type of things out. You may go back and forth a few times before you settle on how you truly believe that these items should be handled. You have an excellent attitude. Just please continue to consider the thoughts of those who have been at this few more years and have gone through a great deal of this thinking process already. But by all means don't just take their word for it, wrestle with it mentally for yourself, and you will come out way ahead of the game. :)

If only I were 21 again and knew what I know now. ;)

Sounds good! Way to look out for this little peson :)