Stop Sign Not Considered Harmful
 

I have noted with some sadness the fad of bashing of the stop sign here. It's high time somebody stood up for this much maligned game management tool. I guess this makes me somebody ;)

Let me start by saying that I respect what tomegun has been trying to accomplish with his comments. I have even benefited from them: I've given a couple Ts this year that were deserved and afforded no opportunity to stop sign the recipient. Previously I might have felt obliged to give some kind of warning instead of taking care of business. So, Tom, thanks for helping make my game better.

But all this negative press does not negate the simple truth that the stop sign remains a good game management tool. It still works as well as it always has for a variety of uses, mostly having to do with helping a coach or player understand when they are nearing the end of their leash and there is a chance for them to reel themselves back in. And it still has the added benefit of being visible on film.

Despite the criticism it has come under here recently, officials should not hesistate to use it -- when it is appropriate. In fact, rather than eliminate it from their bag of tools, most of us should probably pull it out sooner than we do.

I'm not on a crusade to end the dialogue about when it's appropriate and inappropriate to use. I find that useful. What I find disturbing is the way that other "wanna-be cool kids" regularly pile on. I'm talking about snide comments along the lines of "Did you give him the stop sign, that would have fixed everything." Tomegun's comments certainly sounded heretical to begin with, but were aimed solidly at accomplishing a specific, useful end. But these pile on comments are nothing more than the moral equivalent of picking on the nerdy kid to try to appear to be cool too.

Most of us realize that, chuckle, and don't lose any sleep over it. But there are a lot of newer officials who come here looking to us for sound advice and I think we do them harm by openly dissing the stop sign just to try to be cool.

I appreciate the constructive voice added to the dialogue. I agree with what you're saying about the pile-on.

Perhaps there's a middle ground we haven't considered.

http://www.epicsoftware.com/images/m...sign_large.jpg

My opinion only:

There is nothing a stop sign can do that a low volume word or two cannot do.

Whereas I have seen the very visible stop sign make a situation worse (the coach and crowd can easily interpret it as being "shown up") I have never had a properly chosen soft word turn a situation worse.

I will continue to employ less potentially volatile techniques.

Helpful ?????
 

I believe I got the following, with some editing, from the Tri-City (Washington State ???) Officials Association web site. It may be helpful to rookie officials:

Technical Fouls

Top Reasons To Not Give A Technical Foul
1) You can address a coach before it becomes a problem. A quiet word can go a long way in preventing a technical foul.
2) When coaches complain ask yourself, is the call questionable, is the call wrong. If they have a legitimate gripe then allow them some latitude.
3) If you know a coach is upset then move out onto the floor when in front of their bench.
4) Warnings can be very effective in preventing situations from escalating. Don't tolerate a lot before a warning.
5) Lend and ear. Coaches like to be heard. If you ignore them then they become more frustrated and are more likely to lose control.
6) If an assistant is out of line, then you can speak to the head coach and ask them to help you out.
7) If a player is out of line then let the coach know. Tell them you've warned their player. That way if you do give a technical foul, then the coach isn't surprised. Most good coaches will speak to the player first.
8) If you have had a rough day and know your fuse is short, keep that in mind before you do anything rash. Ask yourself, does the situation come under one of the top ten reasons to give a technical foul.

Top Reasons To Give A Technical Foul
Knowing when the right time to call a technical foul is half the battle. There are many different factors to consider, when deciding to give a technical foul. Generally, there are three areas of coach's behavior that need attention: when a coach makes it personal, when a coach draws attention to himself or herself, and when a coach's complaints are persistent.

Some technical fouls are easy. They are black and white situations that leave little room for negotiations:
1) Using profanity or language that is abusive, vulgar, or obscene.
2) If a coach questions your integrity.
3) Inciting an undesirable crowd reaction.
4) If you are being embarrassed.
5) If coach or player has been warned and has not heeded the warning.
6) Leaving the confines of the coaching box and complaining.
7) A coach demonstrates displeasure with your partner and their back is turned.

Other technical fouls are not as black and white. In some situations a warning may be appropriate before the technical foul is given:
8) A coach or player continually demonstrates signals or asks for calls.
9) If they have interfered with the game or your concentration then they have usually gone too far.
10) If giving a technical will help give structure back to the game and if it will have a calming effect on things.

Top Ways To Give A Technical Foul
1) Calling a technical foul should be no different then calling any other violation. Maintain a pleasant attitude,have poise and presence. Don't embarrass the coach by being demonstrative.
2) Explain technical fouls on players to coaches.
4) Never look at a coach when you give a technical foul.
3) Call the technical foul. Report it to the table and leave the area. Find your partner.
4) Explanations, it needed should be done by partner.
5) After technical fouls, get the ball in play immediately.
6) Make them earn the second technical foul. Don't be reluctant to give the second trechnical foul if it is warranted.

I am in your camp with the use of game management. I too am thrown under the bus, maybe not as bad as Tomgun when it comes to suggesting such a thing. You call it being cool. Is that the name for it, because I happen to think that there are simply some bad officials out here with personal agendas. Some of these guys like JR and Snagwells like to throw officials under the bus and then have you believe they are justified in doing so. I guess that's the new way of being cool but to me, I see their true colors. Unfortunately, they are allowed to continue their crusade of crushing most they come in contact with who challegense their way of thinking on this forum. The art of the stop sign was a point of emphasis a couple of years ago in NFHS. I continue to use it.

BillyMac, do you type about 200 words/minute? You have some of the longest posts I have ever seen!:D

I see what you're saying, but if you're about to administer a free throw and the coach is jawing, you've got no way to have a quick "low volume word." I'm not a big fan of the stop sign, but I've used it to good effect once or twice.

And just yesterday I had a coach run right through a "properly chosen soft word." It wasn't what he wanted to hear, and "that's enough, coach" (loud enough for him to hear) didn't work.

The usage or non-usage of the "stop sign" has <b>never</b> been an NFHS POE.

It must be said though that <b><font color = red>Old School Stare Of Imminent Painful Death(tm)</font></b> has been outlawed by the United Nations for humanitarian reasons.

<i>Oh, the humanity, the humanity..."</i>:eek:

Oh no, OS thinks I'm a bad official. I may as well hang it up. If calling you out for your numerous and frequent mistakes is throwing you under the bus, I suggest you either start wearing body armor or get a rule book. That said, I challenge you to show me where I threw an actual official under the bus.I never did get to sit at the cool table. Boo Hoo.You're projecting now. You've demonstrated repeatedly that you don't know the rules and you aren't really all that concerned about it. Just because some of us feel compelled to correct your errors doesn't mean we're "crushing most they come in contact with." I disagree, quite civilly, with several people here on several issues. There seems to be a different variable in this equation than mere disagreement; maybe you can find it.There's a card game I like to play that seems appropriate here. I call "Bull Sh!t." Show me where the NFHS has ever had a point of emphasis that even obliquely mentioned a "stop sign."

I used to use the stop sign, but no longer find it particularly helpful.

I don't mind if others use it, as I once found it to be a useful tool.

I thought that I was drawing a line for the coach. But I realized that the line I was drawing was in my mind for my own thought process.

On the humorous side:
If your hand is a little bit too high when giving the stop sign, on film it looks like the "Heil Hitler" mechanic. :eek:

I think we need to put this conversation in some context. Most of the stories about the stop sign that people decide to tell about their usage of the "stop sign" ends up in a T anyway. That does not sound like a very good tool if you ask me. If you do something that only exacerbates the behavior, I do not see that as something.

Also how can I tell a coach not to make gestures and as an official I am making a gesture that everyone can see?

On Friday I was working a Regional Championship game. The top seed had a very experienced coach who coached a Division 1 program in the Chicago area at one. I made an obvious travel call very early in the game after a loose ball where a player gained possession against this coach’s team. I come in front of him after the ball was ruled dead. I was standing right next to this coach and simply told him, “We are not going to yell at me all night about travel calls.” He started to yell at me again and I said, “We are not going to yell at me when I am talking to you.” I think proceeded to explain to him what took place. After a timeout he tried to talk to one of my partners who was a State Final Official and works in a supervisory role with officials on another level. All my partner said to him, “Coach, there is a right way to complain about a call.” No one heard these conversations (it was very loud in the gym) and the coach behaved himself the rest of the night. He did not yell at me or any of my partners again. He was warned as well and he got the message. No stop sign given and no T given. I consider that a win-win.

Peace

No way? Are you sure about that? If you are working 3 man, you can go right to the coach and talk to them. If you are working 2 man, tell the coach, "I will be over there in a second, give me a chance" and they will have to hold their horses. If they do not, then you have options.

Maybe you could choose a better set of words than "That's enough coach." This also sounds confrontational as well in my opinion.

Peace

[QUOTE=Back In The Saddle]I have noted with some sadness the fad of bashing of the stop sign here. It's high time somebody stood up for this much maligned game management tool. I guess this makes me somebody ;)
I'm not on a crusade to end the dialogue about when it's appropriate and inappropriate to use. I find that useful. What I find disturbing is the way that other "wanna-be cool kids" regularly pile on. I'm talking about snide comments along the lines of "Did you give him the stop sign, that would have fixed everything." Tomegun's comments certainly sounded heretical to begin with, but were aimed solidly at accomplishing a specific, useful end. But these pile on comments are nothing more than the moral equivalent of picking on the nerdy kid to try to appear to be cool too.

QUOTE]

I guess I'm the guy that put you over the top. My apologies. It was an attempt at humor.

For the record, however, at the rules meeting I attended in my part of Illinois, we were told straight up to take the stop sign out of our arsenal of un-approved mechanics. Seems it might have been having opposite the intended effect in some cases.

My Legacy to this forum
 

This whole stop sign controversy started with one of my postsand me describing when I used it (which did end up in a T). However, Friday night, I had a situation that I know some would've used the stop sign.

Home team (Falcons) were Hosting the Rangers. Boys JV. Falcons coach is usually very calm. Two pretty good teams. Falcons lead most of the game 6-10 points. With about 4:00 in the game Rangers put a little run together to close to 7. I am lead as Falcons have the ball. Rangers player tips away ball from behind as Falcons player drives the lane. Before the ball goes out of bounds, it hits off the chest of a Falcons player. I call blue and point the other way. In hind sight I realize that the Falcons player had his back to the bench and there is no way anyone byt me saw the play. As I get ready to administer the throw in the Falcons coach says out loud for the whole gym to hear, "Come on Ignats, don't start screwing me now."

I didn't give him the stop sign. I Whacked him. I'm sure in my first couple of years the stop sign is all I would've given him. But now I won't tolerate anyone questioning my integrity like that.

Is there an argument for using the stop sign because that will show up on game tape? Since we are constantly on video, using visible means of commication can be useful - especially if the coach ends up being ejected and there is some reason to revisit the chain of events.

I'm talking about lead on a free throw. 2 man or 3 man, it isn't going to make a difference. I suppose I could have held off on the free throw and walked over for a discussion.

You're right. I'm not happy with the way that went down, and that's the part I've been rethinking since then. Problem is, the ball was live and inbounds when he responded to my answer with, "That's terrible." I was right in front of him, but didn't find it appropriate to turn my back. A longer answer may have been appropriate, something more direct and detailed addressing his behavior.

The usage or non-usage of the stop sign should not be a prerequisite of using good communication skills and good mechanics which will sell more of your calls a lot more than a single gesture ever will.

Peace

Had the same thing in a Girls regional play-off last year. Home coach was standing next to me yelling in my ear. I turned my head slightly towards him and said "You need to stop yelling in my ear!". He immediately walked away from me and nobody in the gym had any idea I said something to him. No reason to give him a visual stop sign for all to see in this situation.

Agreed. Also, the one time I used it this season, I felt weird. It felt more like a "talk to the hand" than anything else. I think the reason it "worked" had more to do with the fact that the coach had gotten the call he wanted, he just thought it should have come from me.

Why are you talking to a coach from the lead position at all in a 3 person game? There is an official standing closer to a coach than you will ever be at the lead. If you do it right, the calling officials is the officials closest to the coach anyway. Now in 2 man, I am not talking a lot to a coach ever during that sequence. But I will establish this pretty early in my games.


This is why you should mostly be talking to coaches during dead ball. I do not talk to coaches a lot during live ball as a regular practice. I tend to ignore them during those times. When there is a dead ball or there is after a timeout, I will make myself available if a coach has a legitimate question. I used to try to talk to coaches during live ball and the message hardly ever gets across when I am running by. Usually I will just tell the coach, "Wait until a dead ball and I will talk to you when I get a chance."

Peace

I respectfully disagree...I am not a fan of the stop sign. I have used it only one time that I can remember this season, but at the time I used it, I wanted everyone in the gym - including the evaluator/observer sitting up in the top row - to know that the coach had gone too far and needed to cease and desist. Did he end up getting T'd - yes...but not by me. There are times when the stop sign sends the message to everyone in the gym that the coach needs to stop whatever it is he/she is doing...

I have heard that issue discussed before. I do not necessarily agree that this solves all issues. You still will have to explain why you called a T. And unless you are in the picture on video, it might not be clear if you used the stop sign. I am not sure I would rely on the video tape to save my behind.

Peace

Mission accomplished!

Sometimes people refuse to see the truth even when someone (Rut) makes it plain. If this game management tool is so useful, why do most of the stories on this forum end up with a T anyway. Just like I've mentioned before about applying the stop sign to a normal conversation off the court, think about something in normal life you would do to prevent something else. If doing A repeatedly did NOT prevent B, would you continue to do A?
I can understand doing something that will show up on film. However, most things the coach does will be obvious so it doesn't matter anyway.

GREAT point that I hope will not get overlooked by those viewing this thread!

Yup, it's just another tool that works in certain situations if it's used correctly. Experience and officiating acumen lets you know how and when to use it.

It can be used appropriately on players, assistant coaches, etc. too.

Never say never.

Perhaps because "I had this coach who was starting to get a little out of hand, but not enough to justify a T, so I gave him the old stop sign and he knocked it off" doesn't make much of a story. It kind of ranks up there with "I called the first handcheck and it cleaned up the guard play." Ho hum. Dog bites man. Good officiating, not much of a story.

Garth, I'd say you have to consider college ball when games are video taped (or even hs games w/ video taping) that don't have the audio capabilities to pick up your soft word to the coach. However, lets say a coach doesn't heed a warning and you have to give a tech a few plays later -- then at least on tape they have a visable sign that the coach was WARNED.

Of course, you don't always need to give a stop sign... some coaches just need a pleasant reminder to stay under control. But to say that there is nothing it can do is an overstatement.

Since you did not read my other post about this, then let me say this about your assumption. You are assuming that every aspect of a game is video taped. It clearly is not. I have multiple video taped games just from this year and there many times you cannot see the officials in during the game. You also cannot see many dead ball situations. So now you are relying on the tape to show something it might not display at all. So when there is a FT, you might not see where the Trail official is located and who they are talking to.

It is just as overstated to say it should be used or that it is not harmful (like the title of this thread). As I have said many times before, you cannot use what works for someone else and automatically translate that into your game. It also takes experience to know when to use something effectively. I just choose not to use a tool that can go one way or the other that is also very public.

Peace

And you are right Snagwells, you are full of bull sh!t. Anywho, old chum, if you refer back to the NFHS POE Official Publication Basketball Guide 04-05 page 6:

"HAD ENOUGH? STOP SIGN EM"
Conversation with a coach during a game is something that will always occur. Somtimes that exchange of information between a coach and official is conversational and sometimes it is not. When and where to draw the line is debatable and depends on many variables. When you're made the decision to let the coach know you've heard enough, let him or her know visually as well as verbally. While verbally informaing the coach enough is enough, give the coach the stop sign. By giving the coach warning verbally and visually, your physical actions will be on tape. If the coach crosses the proverbial line after that point, you'll be on the record as giving a warning to the coach.

Read it and weep. Now I know you and JR will probably switch this to mean something else like you did my 3 second interrupted dribble in the lane. But that's okay because I know what I'm going to call and do in both these situations.

I'm A Terrible Typer ...
 

From MJT: "BillyMac, do you type about 200 words/minute? You have some of the longest posts I have ever seen!"

MJT: I'm a terrible typer. On top of that I refuse to use the spell check offered by this Forum because I'm not very computer literate, I'm using Windows 98, I bet I'm one of the few Forum members to still use this 20th century operating system, and I'm afraid that I'll screw up something on my computer if I download a second spell check program. I actually use something called a dictionary, for our younger Forum members, this is a book with paper pages that contains a lot of correctly spelled words in alphabetical order, to check my spelling, again a 20th century technology. I'm always afraid that when I post I'll be "caught" by our "Annoying Spelling" Forum member.

I'm a member of my local association's training committee and I have maintained a virtual library of handouts, etc., regarding basketball rules, for the purpose of this committee, on my hard drive. I have also copied and pasted text from my previous posts, since the same questions seem to keep coming up as more new members join the Forum.

As a retired teacher, I'm now an analytical chemist, I guess that I can't stop teaching, whether it be as a member of my local association's training committee, or as a member of this Forum. After thirty-one years of teaching, I felt very confident teaching my science classes. Believe it or not, as a twenty-six year official, I feel less confident in my knowledge of basketball rules, which is why I often look to our more veteran Forum members for help and advice.

I hope that my posts don't bore too many Forum members. I'm just trying to give some of our younger Forum members some of the knowledge that I've gained over the past twenty-six years.

Um, Old School, whatinthehell <b>is</b> the NFHS Official Publication Basketball Guide 04-05?:confused:

Let me explain this to you real s-l-o-w-l-y.....

POE is short for "Points of Emphasis". POE's are found every year at the back of the NFHS <b>rule book</b>, right after Rule 10. They are also posted on the NFHS web site. They are <b>not</b> posted in the NFHS casebook, manual, comic book, etc.

Now, take a while and try to comprehend that.

Ready yet?

Not yet, eh?

How about now?

OK, we'll try to go a little further then. I am looking at the 2004-05 POE's found on pages 69 to 71 in the NFHS 2004-05 rule book. <b>Nowhere</b> in those POE's can be found <b>any</b> mention of stop sign usage. Further, I also have <b>all</b> of the rule book and associated POE's from 2000-01 on, and in <b>NONE</b> of them is found anything relating to stop sign usage either. And, for your further edification, page 6 of the 2004-05 rulebook shows the pictures of the people serving on that year's rules committee.

Now, knowing that you have never owned an NFHS rulebook in your entire officiating career/life, are you sure that you're not looking at something that your rec league maybe gave to you? You sureashell are <b>NOT</b> looking at any POE related to "stop signs".

It might help if you actually knew what a POE was in the first place too.

Now let me explain this to you real S.L.O.W.L.Y. Go to the link below, moron.

http://secure.referee.com/index.cfm?...Product_ID=304

You honestly don't know or understand what a POE really is, do you? Sad.

That's a NASO/REFEREE booklet. All that little booklet does is reprint some of the NFHS stuff like new rules, etc. It's a <b>Pre-season Guide</b> only. If REFEREE does put something in that booklet, it's their own procedures, not the FEDs, and it sureashell isn't official in any way. Maybe your local rec league got a few of those back in 2004 to hand out to their officials in lieu of rulebooks, casebooks, manuals, etc., but these booklets don't have anything at all to do with NFHS-issued POE's.

If you had ever owned even <b>one</b> NFHS rulebook in your entire life, you <b>might</b> understand what I'm talking about.

Trying to officiate using a REFEREE magazine pre-season guide and no rule books.....Lah freaking me.....

Btw, moron? Tsk, tsk, tsk.....

This actually is not true. It is an official NF Publication. It says so on the guide.

Continue on with your little spat. ;)

Peace

Yeah, I have the Oscars on "in the background".
This thread is more entertaining! :)

Um, no. I've seen one of those booklets. REFEREE throws in some new rules, etc. issued by the FED, but do add some of their own content. The actual FED content in the booklet is just reprinted. Anything that REFEREE adds means nothing about nothing officially.

If you go to the FED website and check out what they're selling, you won't find that pre-season booklet anywhere. I just looked and I couldn't find it.

So you pull some third rate publication out of your azz and think it proves that ...Now it's just getting funny. You can't possibly be this obtuse.
BTW, I've been known to be full of $hit. This isn't one of those times. "Referee Magazine" does not equal a rule book.

Good grief, you got thoroughly exposed as a fraud in that debate, we didn't have to twist anything. I claimed the three second count continues during an interrupted dribble, you disagreed. It was pretty straight forward. Perhaps you can point to where I or JR twisted or shifted anything? I doubt it, but will apologize if you can show that I twisted your meanings in any way.
You do what you want, and as long as you're consistently wrong about it in your intramural games, no one will really care.

Confused ??
 

I'm a little slower than most Forum members so I'm a little confused.

What is the relationship between the the NASO/Referee Preseason Basketball Guide and the NFHS? I don't know what term to use, but I'll give it a shot. Is this Preseason Basketball Guide affiliated with, authorized by, or in any way connected to, or condoned by the NFHS? Can items in this publication be used to cite NFHS rule and/or interpretion situations and plays, with the backing of the NFHS? Does anyone know if anything appearing in this publication has ever later been rejected by the NFHS as not applying to NFHS rules or interpretations?

I hope that there is a Forum member out there who can answer some of these questions with facts and not with opinions. That may help us to once and for all "bury" the issue about the "stop sign". Has or does the NFHS, not the NASO or Referee, suggest that officials may use a visual warning to indicate to the coach, and to the video tape, and possibly to the crowd, and to your partner, that "enough is enough"?

All I can say is if a publication puts on the front their affiliation with a particular organization I would think the contents are pretty official. If they did not want you to think that, then they would not put their name on it. If someone writes a book does it matter who actually wrote the contents? I am not sure how official it gets than that. Are we going to know debate which company actually did the printing to make sure that the NF had something to do with that too?

Peace

OK, this thing is published by the National Association of Sports Officials - same people that put out the Referee magazine. While that magazine does offer some good topics - many of the things in there are just plain wrong. It is not a NFHS publication - the address of the company that publishes this is in Wisconsin not Indianapolis. While they may have some sort of an endorsement from the federation it does not make it gospel.

You need to blow up the picture. In the top right hand corner the words, "Official Publication of the NFHS" is listed.

I am looking at a 2007 Baseball NFHS Preseason Guide as we speak. My state gives out these guides in all sports that I work currently and have been doing so for probably 4 or 5 years now.

I am not trying to agree with the debate of what was listed, but this is an official publication from the NF. I have no idea if what Old School claimed was even in the publication. But to keep saying it is not official is not only wrong, it is completely wrong.

Peace

Again, no matter what, there was <b>NO</b> POE issued in 2004-05 related to stop signs. Afaik, there has <b>NEVER</b> been a POE issued re: stop signs. I have the rule books going back to 2000 and I have already looked through them; there is <b>NO</b> POE in any of them related to stop signs. What OS found in some handout from his rec league is <b>NOT</b> and <b>NEVER</b> will be a POE. Old School doesn't even know whatthehell a POE actually is.

<b>If</b> there was something in that booklet, again no matter what, it was <b>NOT</b> a POE and wasn't relevant to this discussion. If it hadda been a POE, it woulda been in the rule book. That's the bottom line to Old School's stoopid claim.

I only posted to clarify that what was said was wrong on who produces the Pre-Season Guidebook. I realize there was no POE about this. I never agreed with that part of this thread.

Peace

I have my rec league handouts here, and I have no mention of stop signs here either, so mark that one off too, JR.

Okay, sorry, just trying to provide some comic relief.

No matter what you think, it is a fact. Do you think I just made that up. Go back and reread what I posted. You might be able to get the official copy from Referee magazine for back then.

If you were serious about actually becoming an official one day, don't you think that maybe buying the NFHS rule book, case book and Manual might be a little more beneficial than some <b>booklet</b>? I'm not saying that you actually have to read them. One step at a time in your case.

Somewhere down the line you might actually learn what a POE is too.

Can I ask you a question because I honestly want to know the answer. I'm not trying to draw you into a debate.

Do you own and/or regularly study the approved NFHS rules book? Also, have you ever officiated a high school game played under the direction of NFHS rules?

I answered your question but it got deleted. So the only thing I can tell you is to not ask questions you already know the answer too, and if you don't really know the answer, then you need help of which I have not the answer. You might try asking JR. He knows everything.

Okay, what we have here is two parties stating the truth.

1. Oldie has a booklet put out by NASO/Referee that carries and endorsement by NFHS on the cover. In this booklet there is some mention of the "stop sign."

2. J-R accurately states that the "stop sign" has never been a POE and has not been included in the NFHS rules publications.

Both positions can co-exist in reality, however Oldie has moved outside his truthful statement by insinuating that mention in his booklet equates to a POE and that his booklet has the force of a rules publication.

Either Oldie doesn't know what a POE is, or mistakenly believes that any mention of anything in any booklet with the NFHS logo is a POE.

Until Oldie understands that POE is a specific term with a specific meaning this conversation is going nowhere.

But, before I give up completely, let me recheck...

Giddyap.....c'mon....Giddyap dammit.....

Nope. It's dead.

He doesn't own the rule book/case book, etc...he admitted that earlier this year. Whether he has officiated a high school game under NFHS guidelines is debatable - he will probably say he has, but his posts, quotes from so-called wise men, and ideas for handling situations that come up all lead intelligent people to believe he has not and never will...

DC Ref, pretty much tells you everything you need to know.

Wrong again, but maybe your horse is dead. Right at the top of the page, it says POE. I have not changed my position and it is not worth debating any further. I have stated exactly what I meant. These topics are there as an aid, not an absolute. It is written in an official NFHS document. Just because you and JR don't have a copy makes me wrong or you right. What you are debating is whether or not I'm credible. I am not going to debate that with you or anyone else. I do not care what you think about me because I do not have to work with any of you. If you want to debate the topic, I will defend my position until my death. If you want to debate if I am a HS official or not, then that has no bearing whatsoever on the topic. It is a weak and defeated man's attempt to try and change the subject. Weaker, lesser men will fall prey to such a tactic.

Can We Agree On Something ???
 

1) Let's assume that there really was a NASO/Referee Preseason Basketball Guide that suggests that officials may use a visual warning to indicate to the coach that "enough is enough".

2) Let's assume that this NASO/Referee Preseason Basketball Guide is officially sanctioned by the NFHS because it carries the NFHS logo.

3) Let's assume that a Point of Emphasis in the NASO/Referee Preseason Basketball Guide sanctioned by the NFHS does not have the same meaning as a Point Of Emphasis in the NFHS Rule Book.

Assuming these three things, has the NFHS suggested that officials may use a visual warning to indicate to the coach that "enough is enough"?

Old School: Is there any way you could get to a scanner, scan the article about the visual warning from the NASO/Referee Preseason Basketball Guide, and post it as a thread on the Forum web site? I would really be interested in seeing it.

I will do that. I will have to make a special trip to Kinko's or somewhere like this to get it done. I might add that there is some excellent information in these newsletters, especially rule changes for the upcoming season. Going back and reviewing some of these newsletters, I do recall there was one article that had the answer to a test question. This was the only place I could find it.

I have the pages scanned but they are too big to post here. Any suggestions...???

I'll finally get in here with my $.02, not that too many people care. I think the stop sign has a time and place where it is useful. I agree that too often coaches think that they get a warning before a T. This is not always the case. I was taught to use the stop sign loud and proud. We were told that if a coach was getting out of line to take a step back, put up the hand and firmly say, "that's enough coach". The guy that taught me likes this because it is a good, firm visual statement that the coach has said too much. Then people know the T is coming. I've used the stop sign on occasion, and there are many occasions where it isn't helpful. As with much of what we do there are no absolutes. If you feel it will work for you to help you out of a situation, go ahead and use it. Just never give more than one stop sign (oops, I guess I'm giving an absolute that I just said doesn't exsist in what we do).

Just one. Let it rest. Otherwise, there's probably a web site somewhere that will host something like this. Something like a youtube for pdf documents.

E-mail it to me as an attachment if you can and I should be able to edit the size.