AP Arrow
 

Probably a simple question, but I'm having trouble finding the result.

Team A gets possession on a jump ball situation. They take the ball out of bounds, and while the player out of bounds has the ball, and while the official is counting their 5 seconds, B2 fouls A2 on the floor. We are not in the bonus. A1 gets the ball back out of bounds.

Question: Does the arrow change upon the final pass inbounds, or since the new inbounds pass is a result of a foul and not the AP arrow, do they keep the arrow?

Would this change if it resulted in foul shots? (I assume it would not change if there were foul shots, because there was no resulting in bounds pass).

The subsequent throw-in after the foul is not an AP throw-in. The AP throw-in never completed because of the foul by B2 - therefore the AP arrow does not change. 6-5-5

The AP arrow is changed when the AP throw-in ends or the inbounding team violates. Since neither of these happened in your play, the arrow doesn't change.

That's what I thought! Thanks!

From the Case Book
 

6.4.5 Situation A: Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in under the alternating procedure. A1 commits a violation.
Ruling: B’s ball for a throw-in because of the violation. In addition, the possession arrow is reversed and is pointed towards B’s basket. Team B will have the next throw-in opportunity under the alternating procedure. Team A has lost its opportunity by virtue of the violation. A violation by Team A during an alternating-possession throw-in is the only way a team loses its turn under the procedure.

Comment: If a foul by either team occurs before an alternating-possession throw-in ends, the foul is penalized as required and play continues as it normally would, but the possession arrow is not reversed. The same team will still have the arrow for the next alternating-possession throw-in. The arrow is reversed when an alternating-possession throw-in ends. (6-4-4)

Great example of why it's important to have a properly-instructed table crew. A lot of times because I work in church leagues the folks operating the AP arrow don't know the rules and they switch it when the ball gets handed to the player doing the throw in, or they switch it just after you blow the whistle and make the call for a held ball. It gets frustrating.

Okay, I can't help it and know I'm vastly out numbered here, but I think this is how the rule should read.

and if A2 gets fouled by B2 they lose the arrow? :confused:

Can't agree with that.

I didn't expect you to; no one else does. It's my opinion that the team is entitled to a throwin, not possession. Once the thrower has been given the ball for the throwin, the arrow's job is done. Anything that happens during that throwin is a direct result of the arrow.
Let me put it another way. In your scenario; the foul to against A2 happened because A1 was trying to inbound the ball. If the arrow hadn't given the ball to A, then B2 wouldn't have fouled. The arrow did its job.
Again, I realize I'm outnumbered here.

Huh? I don't get it.

An idiom here in Italy is "se mio nonno avesse le ruote sarebbe un tram" (if my grandpa had wheels, he would be a streetcar). Don't build up hypotheses: players play and sometimes foul. A throw in is just a play situation.

The arrow entitles the team to a throw in: they have the right to make it. When does a throw in end? There are very good reasons to say that it ends when another player touches the ball or the team violates. A foul is a very different thing.

Nobody is saying that the team has a right to possession: if the other team steals the throw in pass, the arrow gets reversed.

And if a frog had wings.... I know. The difference is that I'm not creating unlikely hypotheticals. Good grief.
I already said I expected disagreement. That's fine. This is just how I see it.

It seems arbitrary to me to reverse the arrow on an offensive violation but not on an offensive foul. To me, the arrow gives the thrower the ball; after that all bets should be off because the arrow did its job. You can't say your punishing the team that got fouled during the throwin because they're still getting the ball that the arrow provided.

This should go without saying, but I'm not out there enforcing it the way I think it should be; I'm enforcing it the way it is.

BTW, had a scorer in a middle school game not change the arrow because the pass was stolen. :) We corrected him.

Then why is it called alternating POSSESSION? :D

Evenso, if the foul occurs, then they don;t get their throw-in, do they?

Changing the rule for the sake of making it easier isn't a reason.

And unfortunately, in my area, officials seem unaware of NFHS rule 6-5-5, as 80% of the time, the arrow gets flipped after such a situation and it's not corrected :(

They had their throwin; it resulted in a foul.
You're right, it's not a reason. It's not my reason either. ;)
But, I'm tilting at windmills.

got ta go with the minority
 

definitely think the rule should be made simpler on this one; just do not see any good reason for making it different than what everyone already thinks it is. Everyone thinks it switches as soon as the ball is handed to the thrower and I just do not see why it makes sense to draw the distinction. I cannot explain it better than Snaqwell and rules are always better when they are simple and straightforward; a nuance that does not bring a benefit, is just unnecessary confusion.

Snaqs - Someone should dig up why the IGHSAU does it this way and get their reasoning. I liked it that way too.

Maybe that's where I get it from. My original assigner in the Des Moines area told me he preferred it that way, too, and his reasoning is where I get mine from.

Security breach! It looks as if Big2Cat somehow obtained my password. :)

If they never threw the ball, how did they have a throw-in? :rolleyes:

Now that makes sense. While we're at it, let's make it:

3 seconds when an offensive player is trying to rebound the ball.
Traveling when the thrower moves his feet.
Double dribble when a player fumbles the ball.
GT when a defender slaps the backboard.

Need I go any further? :)

They have a throwin. The throwin starts when the ball is handed to the thrower.

And the throw-in ends....when?:)

When the rules say it does.

Right, when the ball touches or is touched by another player in or OOB.

And if the foul occurs before that, did that throw-in ever end?

No, but if the violation by the throwing team does...

I think that's the preceived inconsistency he's talking about, and I assume that's a part of the reason that governing body does it this way.

No, but only because the rule says so. I'd like to see it changed. Now, has anyone seen the giant windmill?

http://www.petergoodearl.co.uk/lacey.../windmill2.gif

Here you go.

Believe it or not, I can (slightly) understand what you're trying to accomplish. But, it's taken me this long to understand the Fed's way of thinking, so imagine how long it would take for me to change that now?