Advantage/Disadvantage

[drinkeii]

[QUOTE=Snaqwells]
Okay, you go ref a 5th grade boys game and call every travel and double dribble you see. Work on picking up the pivot foot.
QUOTE]

How do they learn what they're doing wrong if they don't get called for it? I don't have any problem calling these kinds of things - and many coaches have actually complimented me on it because they are trying to teach their kids the right way to do things. The refs who ignore things like that teach the kids bad habits.

And yes, some coaches complain that i'm not letting them play. I always say "My job is to keep the kids safe, and administer the rules - if the kids play safe (for their level), and they play within the rules, they get plenty of game flow - if they don't, the game flow isn't there because of their style of play"

[Adam]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

How do they learn what they're doing wrong if they don't get called for it? I don't have any problem calling these kinds of things - and many coaches have actually complimented me on it because they are trying to teach their kids the right way to do things. The refs who ignore things like that teach the kids bad habits.

Two things, and they may seem contradictory.
1. At certain lower levels, if you call them for every violation you see, they won't learn anything. You call 40 travels in a running clock game, all they're going to learn is how to run their in bounds play. I'll tell you flat out, when I'm doing a game like this, I'm looking for advantage on a travel before I call it; same thing with double dribbles.
2. It's not our job to teach these kids to play basketball. In a way, it's to allow the coaches to teach them. By blowing your whistle every 20 seconds, we remove that opportunity from the coaches.
3. I don't care about how many coaches compliment or complain. (I know I said two, but consider 3 a bonus.)

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Two things, and they may seem contradictory.
1. At certain lower levels, if you call them for every violation you see, they won't learn anything. You call 40 travels in a running clock game, all they're going to learn is how to run their in bounds play. I'll tell you flat out, when I'm doing a game like this, I'm looking for advantage on a travel before I call it; same thing with double dribbles.
2. It's not our job to teach these kids to play basketball. In a way, it's to allow the coaches to teach them. By blowing your whistle every 20 seconds, we remove that opportunity from the coaches.
3. I don't care about how many coaches compliment or complain. (I know I said two, but consider 3 a bonus.)

Good point on #3 - i'm simply saying I have some coaches that agree with my philosophy.

As for 1 and 2 - they're not going to learn the rules (which is bad enough as it is - no one seems to know the real rules except for the refs, which is a major part of problems with basketball and rule enforcement - players would play better if they knew what was really legal and not, rather than wanting reaching and over the back fouls), if they're just allowed to do whatever they want to. I've seen 5th grade games which every kid travels every time he moves, and I've seen 5th grade games where every kid is able to recognise his pivot, set it, and move legally. Most are somewhere in between. If our job isn't to teach, then we should be calling it every time, and every coach should be explaining to their kids what they're doing wrong. In a perfect world...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

and many coaches have actually complimented me on it because they are trying to teach their kids the right way to do things. The refs who ignore things like that teach the kids bad habits.

And coaches have complimented me. I don't teach the kids anything. The coaches do. It's the coach's job to teach the kids not to travel.

If I'm doing a 10U game I'm not calling every single travel. If a player is all by his/herself near halfcourt and lifts the pivot foot before dribbling I'm not calling it. And I'll continue to get games.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

How do they learn what they're doing wrong if they don't get called for it? I don't have any problem calling these kinds of things - and many coaches have actually complimented me on it because they are trying to teach their kids the right way to do things. The refs who ignore things like that teach the kids bad habits.

And yes, some coaches complain that i'm not letting them play. I always say "My job is to keep the kids safe, and administer the rules - if the kids play safe (for their level), and they play within the rules, they get plenty of game flow - if they don't, the game flow isn't there because of their style of play"

The more and more I read this board, the more and more I do not want to ever work another lower level game. It is not my job to teach anyone anything. My job is to call the game as it relates to my judgment and my experience. I am not calling every minor violation in a lower level game any more than I would not call that way at a college game. It is the job of the players to adjust to what I call.

Peace

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The more and more I read this board, the more and more I do not want to ever work another lower level game. It is not my job to teach anyone anything. My job is to call the game as it relates to my judgment and my experience. I am not calling every minor violation in a lower level game any more than I would not call that way at a college game. It is the job of the players to adjust to what I call.

Peace

Why should the players have to adjust to what "You" call? Shoudn't they play within the rules, and when they don't, expect to get called for fouls or violations? This is my point - they shouldn't have to adjust to you - they should adjust to the rules. They shouldn't have to change how they play game to game to fit with the ref they are playing with that day.

Another user posted the same thing - smart players and coaches adjust to what is being called. They shouldn't have to - they should be able to play within the defined rules of the game, and not worry about whether something is getting called or not that day - it should be called or not called, as the rules state.

I am an assistant coach for a CYO basketball team right now. Our team plays relatively clean (they're not angels, but they play relatively clean). 4 situations occurred this season:

1) Us vs Rough team with refs who call very little - we were at a major disadvantage
2) Us vs Rough team with refs who called by the book - we were at a major advantage
3) Us vs Relatively Clean team with refs who call very little - fair game
4) Us vs Relatively Clean team with refs who called by the book - fair game

Why should what the refs choose to call affect a game that much?

[zakman2005000]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

Why should the players have to adjust to what "You" call? Shoudn't they play within the rules, and when they don't, expect to get called for fouls or violations? This is my point - they shouldn't have to adjust to you - they should adjust to the rules. They shouldn't have to change how they play game to game to fit with the ref they are playing with that day.

Another user posted the same thing - smart players and coaches adjust to what is being called. They shouldn't have to - they should be able to play within the defined rules of the game, and not worry about whether something is getting called or not that day - it should be called or not called, as the rules state.

I am an assistant coach for a CYO basketball team right now. Our team plays relatively clean (they're not angels, but they play relatively clean). 4 situations occurred this season:

1) Us vs Rough team with refs who call very little - we were at a major disadvantage
2) Us vs Rough team with refs who called by the book - we were at a major advantage
3) Us vs Relatively Clean team with refs who call very little - fair game
4) Us vs Relatively Clean team with refs who called by the book - fair game

Why should what the refs choose to call affect a game that much?

Without trying to sound condescending, feel free to have robots officiate your game because that's what it sounds like you want. No two officials are going to judge the same action identically.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by zakman2005000

Without trying to sound condescending, feel free to have robots officiate your game because that's what it sounds like you want. No two officials are going to judge the same action identically.

I don't believe this is even possible. I do wish, however, that officials would call more by the rules than their personal feelings or philosophy. Why have rules if you're not going to administer them?

[Adam]

Here's the thing. At the CYO level, you're going to get refs who are learning how to apply advantage/disadvantage. Not all of them are going to have it figured out.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Here's the thing. At the CYO level, you're going to get refs who are learning how to apply advantage/disadvantage. Not all of them are going to have it figured out.

They shouldn't have to. The rules say this is legal, that isn't, and they should be calling by those standards.

I'm talking high school CYO, and many of those officials are varsity officials also in our area. They are much more lenient in CYO games with what they choose to call - the rules don't change, but the officials change what they choose to call. This is where I have a problem, both as an official and as a coach.

How do I teach my kids what to do, if every game, what they can and cannot do changes? If they're calling very little, should I tell them to foul the crap out of everyone, because they can get away with it? I'm sorry - I won't tell them to break the rules intentionally, just because the refs aren't calling it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

They shouldn't have to. The rules say this is legal, that isn't, and they should be calling by those standards.

I'm talking about contact, in which the rules do say some is legal and some isn't; it's up to the judgment of the official.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

Why should the players have to adjust to what "You" call? Shoudn't they play within the rules, and when they don't, expect to get called for fouls or violations? This is my point - they shouldn't have to adjust to you - they should adjust to the rules. They shouldn't have to change how they play game to game to fit with the ref they are playing with that day.

They do not have to adjust to me. If they do not adjust to me, they do not have to hire me. I call the game based on my interpretation of the rules and my personal judgment. I work with a lot of other officials that share similar opinions on judgment and interpretation that I do. If they do not like the job I am doing, then there are plenty of officials out there they can hire. Also the rules do not call themselves. Officials call the rules. I see a lot of officials that “call the game by the rules” as you said, but their judgment is suspect at best. Players and coaches have to adjust to them as well.

Peace

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

They do not have to adjust to me. If they do not adjust to me, they do not have to hire me. I call the game based on my interpretation of the rules and my personal judgment. I work with a lot of other officials that share similar opinions on judgment and interpretation that I do. If they do not like the job I am doing, then there are plenty of officials out there they can hire. Also the rules do not call themselves. Officials call the rules. I see a lot of officials that “call the game by the rules” as you said, but their judgment is suspect at best. Players and coaches have to adjust to them as well.

Peace

But shouldn't they already be adjusted to playing by the rules (or outside the rules and getting called for it)? Why should they have to change game to game how they play based on which officials are there and which aren't, and what rules they choose to enforce that day?

It shouldn't be an adjustment - they should already be playing based on the rules of the game. By not calling them consistently (and adding in "judgements" which are personal, and not in the rules), we are forcing them to change how they play from game to game.

Does it make sense that my team, as stated above, should have such a wide variety of outcomes to a game based on how the officials are that day? Or should they expect if they come up against a team which does things outside the rules (read "fouls") a lot, that they'll get a lot of fouls called, and when they play against a team which stays within the rules most of the time, little will be called?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

Does it make sense that my team, as stated above, should have such a wide variety of outcomes to a game based on how the officials are that day? Or should they expect if they come up against a team which does things outside the rules (read "fouls") a lot, that they'll get a lot of fouls called, and when they play against a team which stays within the rules most of the time, little will be called?

They should expect that their coach understands "the game" and is able to adjust to all facets of "the game" as they arise to help them make the proper adjustment to the game that they are playing.

Including the performance of the officials.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

But shouldn't they already be adjusted to playing by the rules (or outside the rules and getting called for it)? Why should they have to change game to game how they play based on which officials are there and which aren't, and what rules they choose to enforce that day?

It shouldn't be an adjustment - they should already be playing based on the rules of the game. By not calling them consistently (and adding in "judgements" which are personal, and not in the rules), we are forcing them to change how they play from game to game.

Does it make sense that my team, as stated above, should have such a wide variety of outcomes to a game based on how the officials are that day? Or should they expect if they come up against a team which does things outside the rules (read "fouls") a lot, that they'll get a lot of fouls called, and when they play against a team which stays within the rules most of the time, little will be called?

There is a reason why some guys get to the higher levels and there are other officials are working JH and middle school games their entire career. If you feel that there is no judgment, frankly that is a very elementary way of thinking. I know of know camp or assignor that hires officials that takes that position. If you feel I am wrong, I guess you will just have to feel that way. I am not trying to convince you personally, I just want to make clear to others that thinking like you are is going to keep them from other opportunities. I will also disagree with another poster, they is a lot of judgment in many violations. If is a carry or not takes some judgment on the part of the calling official. It is one thing to know what a rule is but you have to accurately notice it and call it appropriately.

Peace