Reasons for Players Attitudes
 

I posted that last night I "T"ed up another player for running her mouth. I also said that the coach was all over me the entire game complaining about every call.

Please let me elaborate. I am doing the varsity contest and I get to the JV game before half time ( as we are suppose to ) the JV ref isn't feeeling well and asks if I would do the 2nd half of the JV game. No problem, I like to double up most of the time anyway. It get's me more focused before the varsity game. When I come out on the floor ( and I had a good half time report of how the game was going from my partner ) The visitors were winning by 12 points. Overall, the game is going well, but there are a lot of fouls on both teams. We are in the bonus before the end of the 3rd quarter. We have 2 offensive fouls on the home team, both good calls. ( I called one ) The visiting coach is complaining about every call ( except the ones that go his way. )
Starting the 4th quarter the home team has cut the lead to 4. In the fourth quarter, There is a lot of reaching in to steal the ball or to get a jump ball. On the throw in in backcourt B2 ( visitor ) reaches in and grabs A1's arm but A1 controls and pulls away. I got nothing. A1 says "get your hands off of me" B1 starts mouthing off and continues to mouth off past half court. I couldn't hear everything but I heard enough to know, it was unsportsmanlike conduct and I "T" her up. The visitor goes jumps up and says " Why are you even here?" , "We would be better off if you had never come out of the locker room" I look at him and say "coach do you want a "T" also?" He controls himself and says " no seriously, why are you here?" I explain the situation and all is fine. He still complains off and on through the rest of the game, but not worthy of a "T"

Home team takes the lead and it goes back and forth till Home team takes a 3 point lead and wins the game. As I am leaving the floor visiting coach makes another comment about my officiating and he seems to think that we ripped him off. IF his team had a 2 point lead, I would have "T"ed him up for the comment.

I love how it's always the officials fault. It has nothing to do with players throwing bad passes, taking bad shots or not playing defense. It's the referees fault that they lose.

And we wonder why they have an attitude....

In your case, it <b>is</b> your fault for putting up with crap. All over you the <b>entire</b> game? Complaining about <b>every</b> call? Complains off and on through the rest of the game even though you warned him? It's completely ridiculous to put up with the crap that you're putting up with. You'll use any excuse in the world to try and justify your failure to <b>never</b> call a completely deserved "T".

If you won't do what you're supposed to do, then don't whine about those mean old coaches. Either sac up or quit complaining. It's your own fault. I've got zero sympathy for officials that are afraid to call technical fouls.

Agreed JR. Also, I take issue with this.

If it's a T at any point during the game, it's a T before I leave the court, regardless of the score. Sure, that T might not have affected the outcome of the game, but if he didn't cool it, he may have well earned another one, which could have affected the outcome.

Now, I wasn't there, so I don't know the whole situation, but just because the penalty for the T wouldn't affect the outcome of the game doesn't mean I'm not going to call it if deserved.

You're telling me, that if you call a walk and the coach says " that wasn't a walk, she never moved her pivot foot" and if you call a foul and the coach says " She never touched her" and you don't call anything and the coach says " where's the foul?" that you are going to "T" him up?

I'm telling you that I will not let a coach complain about <b>every</b> call(your words). Ever. You will, as you admitted several times above, and also in numerous other threads.

If you're going to let coaches repeatedly dump all over you, fine. That's entirely up to you. Just please don't moan and whine about those nasty old coaches if you're not prepared to do something about their behavior. It's your own fault and no one else's.

If we started the game this way

it's very unlkely he would be around long enough to complain about walks.

Gotta agree with Dan and JR here. Coaches need to coach and that does not include coaching me as the ref. How can you let someone question you on EVERY call? It is not constructive and just sends a message that a coach can walk all over you.

Also, why ask the coach if he wants a T? By that point in the game there should be no leeway. The comment was personal in nature and questioned your ability. Immediate T in my book whenever it gets personal.

As JR says.... you gotta take care of bidness. Other officials are gonna get this coach at somepoint and he is going to pull the same crap with them.

I agree with the others. When the line is crossed, it's the officials' responsibility to penalize the disruptive behavior.

There is a difference between a coach whining and actively protesting almost every call. I'll ignore the former as long as it's not disruptive, but the latter needs to be dealt with. There was an article in Referee a couple months back on communicating with coaches - had some good tips on when & how to respond to a coach's comments, and just as importantly, when to ignore them.

The "Why are you even here? We would be better off if you had never come out of the locker room." comment would have drawn an immediate T. If he didn't immediately change his behavior as a result, then as Dan_ref said, it's very unlikely he would be around long enough to do much complaining - and certainly not make the post game comment.

OK, I am in my 7th year. Last night in the 2nd game ( it wasn't as bad as the first ) I am with 2 guys that have over 20 years each. Neither of them called a "T" on either coach and there was complaining, just not as much.

If I "T" up every coach that deserves it, I won't be working.

I "T"ed up a coach last year and he called my assignor and banned me from his home games.

The way I feel is as long as it doen't get personal, it doesn't affect me.

Please tell me this, are you guys doing games and the coaches aren't complaining? I NEVER see a game like that. Our games here are more like what you see when Maryland plays ( and Gary Williams is complaining constantly ) or Bob Knight is coaching and working the refs.

Again, I go back to the coaches line " why are you even here" He was close to crossing the line, but remember, in my area, we have 15 schools that we cover with 39 officials. We all know one another. This guy, I used to coach with. I coached for 11 years. That doesn't mean I won't give him a "T" if I need to, but I understand who he is.

Say what you will, my goal is to be fair to the kids. This was a great comeback game for the home team. The visitors fell apart after half time. Part of that could have been my officiating, I say that because I was told at half time that the official that I replaced wasn't calling much, he missed walks and a few fouls because he was sick and slow on the whistle. I called everything I saw.

There are times in a game when we know we missed a call, in this game I felt very good. I missed have missed a tap out of bounds or two ( on which team tapped it out ), but that was about it. Remember, I came into this game half through the event, I am trying to catch on what is going on in the game as it progresses.

What part of this do you think is NOT personal?

It sounds like maybe the issue here isn't you, it is your association. Why are coaches making decisions to "ban" officials from games? I can see letting them make a request, but your assignor needs to back you better. I'm really lucky to have the assignors I work for. If you don't enforce sportsmanship, you won't be working. That's the way it should be in my opinion.

I agree with you. Coaches should not ban officials, but it happens ALL of the time here. We have several officials banned from different schools.

I have no horse in any game. I go to do the best job I can.

Again as far is what the coach said, I felt he was close to getting the "T", one more comment and I would have rung him up, But after I asked him if he wanted a "T" also, he calmed down.

Most of you guys were never a coach, I was, I understand how coaches think, you want to know how they think?

They think that YOU are out to get them. They think that YOU hate them. And they HATE YOU. They also think they know the rules better than you do. Believe it or don't I was one of them.

So what? Who cares what they think?

Here's some news from someone who thinks like an official:

Coaches will continue to piss all over you until you change their behavior.
You are unwilling to change their behavior.

And guess what? They *still* hate you, even though you let them piss all over you.

Enjoy.

I think this line said a lot -- call the foul for the grab of the hand -- who cares if the offensive player pulled away -- your lack of calling this foul led to A1 talking to B1 -- who talked back -- where you didnt like what B1 was doing after A1 initiated the smack because of a no call on B1 and you end up Ting up B1 when a personal foul here could have prevented this.

also after a coach complains about 3 or 4 calls in a row he/she will hear from me that I will not tolerate the questioning of every call. then if they complain about the next one or the next 2 they will be sitting the rest of the game and its up to them if they want to finish the game from the locker room or actually try and coach. That choice is theirs and I was nice enough to offer it to them.

But here it seems like you let it escalate to the point it got to and you want sympathy -- sorry I agree with the others you let the coach get to that point. however I agree with nocalling that last T -- no need to go plumbing

This sounds like a good no call to me. It's about advantage/disadvantage. Players need to learn that they have to play through a little contact.

Agreed. It's a good no-call.

a grab is a bit more than contact IMO. in this case it proved to lead to smack talk and a T. they learned how to play through it and got to practice a bit of yo-mama was over last night basketball.

Not bad. <b>Nine</b> excuses why you <b>shouldn't</b> call a technical foul. I'd bet that if you were left alone long enough, you could fill a book.

Again, the coaches are gonna sh!t all over you until you do something about it. If you don't want to do anything about it though, that's fine. Just don't whine about the coaches. You're a heckuva lot more to blame for your problems than they are.

The rules say contact is not a foul without advantage. I'll call this in a ms game, but not high school unless it slows the offensive player down significantly. If they're going to b!tch whenever there's some contact, it's going to be a short game for them.

Terrapins Fan
I wonder why you appear to have such a distain for calling a "T"? It is part of the game we HAVE to apply when necessary. It is not personal for you and shouldn't be for the offender. It is the RULE. (10.1 thru 10.5) You should rise above the coach or player who violated the rule. Be calm and direct. If you nip it early and often, coaches will talk and the smart ones will learn. :D :D

I use the "T" as needed.

I called about 6 this year.

Last year 7, the year before 7. And 4 years before that 4 each year. Yeah, we keep records of our "T"s so , I know how many I call.

JR, How many "T"s did you call this year??????? Sounds like you may be over using yours.

I see you never answered this poll- http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...t=31936&page=3

I do very little basketball anymore, but I'll guarantee you that never in my life have I ever taken anywhere near the amount of abuse that you are willing to take. Not even close. Let a coach "complain about every call"? I couldn't look in a mirror after the game. You're in the wrong avocation, Turtle. You're either too much of a wimp or too nice a guy to be an official. There it is, like it or not.

Polls on number of "T"s are absolutely meaningless also. Officials who have shown that they are willing to call "T"s when necessary usually won't get tested that often. Coaches know that they can't get with their crap and they will leave them alone. Officials like that usually end up having the same number of "T"s or less than officials that are afraid to call "T"s(i.e.-you) will end up with.

Again, I don't have a problem with your philosophy, other than I feel sorry for the officials that follow you and have to clean up your mess. As an assignor though, if you were one of my guys I certainly would have a problem with your philosophy. I do have a problem also when you whine about how badly the coaches are acting and yet you absolutely refuse to do anything about it.

A question like this from ANY coach is getting him a one way pass to the locker room from me.

so you would eject a coach for one of those comments?

Yes I would. Personal comments like that deserve nothing less.

JR, add another to my total...you would have wanted me to call more than one tonight but I rung up another coach...He complained about a no call on what he thought was a foul ( it wasn't ), then told me "that's BullSh!t" BANG and I warned him one more word and you're gone. I asked him ( OK I told him ) to take a seat.

It was a good game over all. 9 points in the end. 7 "T"s for the regular season...amazing consistency. I did about 60 high school games. I have not called a "T" in the chuch league that I do and I have done about 20 church league games.

I am getting at least 1 play off game...it would be nice to get 2. I will be an alternate at 1 or more games.

Gamer officals that dont wack coaches makes it worse for all of us.
I was working a District tour game last week and after we finished we stayed to watch a little of the next game.
Coach who is notorius for complaining who I have wacked on numerous occasions is all over this one offical. After a call that this offical made he starts on him. He tells the offical as he walks by to put the ball in play that he needs to look his kids in the eye and explain why he is cheating them. The offical acts like he didnt hear it. This guy is notorious for being a game fee man. So me being the hated offical who has nothing to do with the game he starts on me. He tells this guy that he is worse than me while he is pointing at me!
So I get dragged into this mess because there is an offical that lets this idiot yell at him all night long. I have to call the commissioner to report this behavior because the spineless offical wont. I enforce the rules as the book tells the officals to, and you are worried that the coach is going to black ball you? Or not give you a vote for a tour game? Someone earlier said it right.... They hate you and you cant be their buddy! If that is what you are doing, do us a favor and quit because you are making it worse for the rest of us.

Let them complain!
 

Coaches will complain, its their job on the line.

However, what separates the good coach is that they know "how" to complain.

A good coach will ask you about a situation, or say to watch a particular play, but they will not ever get personal with it.

Once the coach makes it personal then he's on the way out.

But just to write about coaches complaining about calls it crazy, that's what they are paid to do.

But never allow a coach to complain about you!

Once he starts using the "you" word then he's asking to get a T and then an exit.

Once the coaches know that, its amazing how the complaining quits being personal.

Of course some coaches will never learn because we have too many officials that allow them to cross the line night after night, game after game.

That's what makes it so hard for everyone else.

Thansk
David

Since you coached for so long, I'm sure you would have expected an explanation when a different official comes out of the locker room for the second half. As an official, I'm sure before the coaches got the chance to ask, you would offer such an explaination. Your posts does not mention if you did this but I bet it would have had a pretty serious effect on their opinion of how the second half was called. He spent 40+ minutes wondering where the other official is and why you are there and it finally all came out. Just a thought.

WHile you are correct on the facts, there is more to it than that. Coaches also routinely referee from the bench. That doesn't last long in my games. Ask me why on a specific play I didn't call something. Ask me politely and I'll tell you. "Coach, he was bobbling the ball and had no control." But demand calls, yell out "travel" , "reach", or my favorite "Over the back" more than once and the seatbelt salesman will be smiling again as he just got another sale.

I see your point, but it all goes back to knowing how to talk with an official.

I coached for 10 years before becoming a referee and it made me a better referee because I know what its like to be on the bench, and also having to work to keep my job.

But you are right, too many coaches don't know how to work an official. The higher level that I've worked the better I've seen the coaches at working an official.

But at the same time, officials need to recognize that it is the coach's job to win the game and part of that is dealing with officials.

Nothing wrong with saying 'that's a travel' - it probably was and we just missed it. But saying 'you haven't called traveling all night' - oops different animal, and we have to deal with it accordingly.

Thanks
David

SHow me ONE coaching job description where it says it's their job to complain.

Its that three letter word .... W I N!;)

Yes, but it is specifically listed in the rules that trying to influence an official's call is unsporting behavior and a technical should be called. ANY time a coach is yelling out violations and fouls from the bench, he is actually doing that. We as a group only have ourselves to blame that it even happens in games. If we enforced that rule like we do, say, the fighting rule, it would never be an issue.

I see your point but
 

I know your point, coaches are out of hand, but your analogy is a little out of sync with reality.

You are the official, a player travels and #23 who is playing defense looks at you, gives the traveling signal and says "that's a travel".

You go to the other end of the floor and #23 gives his opponent a haymaker to the jaw - and a brawl ensues.

So as an official we are to officiate both the same way?

But, as a whole I know what you are talking about - had 5 T's in our divisional final last weekend - players and coaches completely out of control :(

The only way it will be controlled is when officials do not pander to the coaches.

Thanks
David

Yes. We should officiate them both the same.........as the rules intend. And actually, if a player did what you described in the first example, I would T him up. ITs probable that if I did that, the second act doesn't happen because if his coach is smart, he took him out of the game.

Only now they don't respect you either. :(

SHow me a coaches contract that stipulates that they must win. And I'm talking about at the HS Level. Hell, even at the D1 Level I doubt that is in a clause of the contract.

I will not say that this board has an influence on when I will call a "T", But I called 2 tonight...` on a coach, one on a player, both questioned my " No call" I warned both teams at half time that I wasn't going to put up with any more complaining. I "T"ed up the home coach ( who was winning ) in the 3rd quarter and a visiting player in the 4th quarter after I didn't make a call on his drive to the basket. He said twice, "You've got to make that call" So, I made the call"T".

Now after the game, I am taking to his coach. He complains that I need to take more criticism. I explained that I shouldn't take any at all. He disagreed. I explained that if I take a little, next time I get more and it only escalates. He walked away.

I explained the "T" to the officials for the next game. they didn't think I should have called them. One of the officials there has over 30 years and has never ( NEVER ) call one "T". He is not the only official in our board that has never called a "T", my bet is we have at least 3. remember we have 39 officials.

I still do not believe that any of you have influenced my calling the "T"s but I do expect you will think you have. I am up ro 9. I have 2 more games scheduled....My goal is ZERO in those games. I will let you know.

30 years and no T's... Unless he can can sell sand to a Kuwaiti, its gutless and a cop out.... Somewhere he would need to call a T...


Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor---Other times they just need to get whacked.

Sorta like being a cop for 30 years and never writing a traffic ticket.

Or eating a donut :eek:

Then why do you come here? What is the point of engaging fellow officials in a dialogue about officiating if your intent is to not allow them to influence your thinking? You have hundreds, maybe even thousands, of years combined officiating experience at every imaginable level here on this board. Why would you NOT want to learn as much as you possibly can from everybody here?

Surely you don't come just to pontificate from your vast store of experience and knowledge. :(

I never said I don't learn. My point was that I am not calling "T"s based on this discussion, but in the last week, I have called as many "T"s as I have all season. It's just a coincidence. I have not tracked my "T"s in the past to see when they were called. Part of the reason for having more now than all season, could be the games mean more to the teams and coaches. I can't say.

But what I can say is that I am hearing more crap from players and coaches lately.

Terripins Fan,

I think you may be getting a little defensive here. There is a lot to be learned from this forum. You may not like the way it is being said, but consider what is being said.

Let me give it a stab.

First off, I think part of the problem in this situation was that you entered the game at halftime. I have never done that before, but I imagine it would cause all sorts of problems, including having to clean up a mess made by somebody else.

Secondly, you stated that you have 39 officials to cover 15 schools. Do the math. 15 schools, 8th/9th grade, JV/Varsity, Boys/Girls. 39 officials. The Schools are not in the drivers seat here. The officials are. Who they gonna get to officiate all those games?

Try this for kicks. Start calling any and every unsporting foul you see. No warning, no discussion, don't take any crap off of anyone. Stay calm, blow the whistle, report the unsporting behaivor, give em another one, throw em out, forfeit the game. Write the reports to the State Association.

Either one of two things will happen. You will be blackballed by all 15 schools, the local Association, and the State Association or you will start getting some respect from these coaches who think they are running everything including the officials.

15 schools and 39 officials? What do you think will really happen?

Oh yeah. And try to remember the folks here are your comrades. They say the things they say to help YOU!

Of course, you don't have to listen to me. I'm just a rookie. But, I'm rooting for you just the same as if you were my brother.

Technical Fouls
 

I can't remember where I got this, possibly from an officials association website, maybe out west, but it has some merit, especially for rookie officials:

Technical Fouls

Top Reasons To Not Give A Technical Foul
1) You can address a coach before it becomes a problem. A quiet word can go a long way in preventing a technical foul.
2) When coaches complain ask yourself, is the call questionable, is the call wrong. If they have a legitimate gripe then allow them some latitude.
3) If you know a coach is upset then move out onto the floor when in front of their bench.
4) Warnings can be very effective in preventing situations from escalating. Don't tolerate a lot before a warning.
5) Lend and ear. Coaches like to be heard. If you ignore them then they become more frustrated and are more likely to lose control.
6) If an assistant is out of line, then you can speak to the head coach and ask them to help you out.
7) If a player is out of line then let the coach know. Tell them you've warned their player. That way if you do give a technical foul, then the coach isn't surprised. Most good coaches will speak to the player first.
8) If you have had a rough day and know your fuse is short, keep that in mind before you do anything rash. Ask yourself, does the situation come under one of the top reasons to give a technical foul.

Top Reasons To Give A Technical Foul
Knowing when the right time to call a technical foul is half the battle. There are many different factors to consider, when deciding to give a technical foul. Generally, there are three areas of coach's behavior that need attention: when a coach makes it personal, when a coach draws attention to himself or herself, and when a coach's complaints are persistent.

Some technical fouls are easy. They are black and white situations that leave little room for negotiations:
1) Using profanity or language that is abusive, vulgar, or obscene.
2) If a coach questions your integrity.
3) Inciting an undesirable crowd reaction.
4) If you are being embarrassed.
5) If coach or player has been warned and has not heeded the warning.
6) Leaving the confines of the coaching box and complaining.
7) A coach demonstrates displeasure with your partner and their back is turned.

Other technical fouls are not as black and white. In some situations a warning may be appropriate before the technical foul is given:
8) A coach or player continually demonstrates signals or asks for calls.
9) If they have interfered with the game or your concentration then they have usually gone too far.
10) If giving a technical will help give structure back to the game and if it will have a calming effect on things.

Top Ways To Give A Technical Foul
1) Calling a technical foul should be no different then calling any other violation. Maintain a pleasant attitude, have poise and presence. Don't embarrass the coach by being demonstrative.
2) Explain technical fouls on players to coaches.
4) Never look at a coach when you give a technical foul.
3) Call the technical foul. Report it to the table and leave the area. Find your partner.
4) Explanations, it needed should be done by partner.
5) After technical fouls, get the ball in play immediately.
6) Make them earn the second technical foul. Don't be reluctant to give the second trechnical foul if it is warranted.