Fighting
 

A1 and A2 are legally substituted for and are now bench personnel. Once on the bench, A1 and A2 begin throwing a series of punches at each other and cursing at each other. As an official, would you do anything? If so, how would you handle this situation?

Would your ruling or reaction to the situation change if A1 and A2 were legal players on the court while fighting and cursing?

Nope, if they are fighting, they are fighting. They are hitting the showers early in my game. I'd charge a flagrant technical foul to them for fighting, that's an indirect on the coach since they are bench personnel.

The only change is it wouldn't be an indirect on the coach.

Tanner,
Send them to the same shower ? What if no lockerroom supervision is available? :cool:

Are you really saying players from the same team are fighting each other (A1 and A2)? If so, that coach has that team in control.

Good point, in that case, sit'em on the bench.

Isn't it true the NFHS wording on fighting is geared around opponents? I think so but agree - Lock them down somewhere. I also read that next years rule changes will specifically address inter-team fighting.

No place for this on the court.

Fighting is fighting ... against refereee's, opponents, fans, admin, table, cheerleaders or teammates.

Ref Daddy:

You're right. I had to look it up. The NFHS defines "fighting" as "acts that involve opponents", Rule 4-18-1,2.

However, the beginning of this rule states that fighting includes, but "is not limited to", acts mentioned in Article 1 and 2.

Does this mean that we can penalize teammates for fighting, possibly under Rule 10-3-9 "fighting", or under Rule 10-3-7 "unsporting fouls" which also includes the phrase "not limited to" ?

Or perhaps we can't penalize fighting teammates at all ?

Forum members. Help me out. I've always assumed that I could penalize any fighting during a basketball game. Maybe? Maybe not?

Billy--

You can penalize a fight any way you deem it needs to be penalized. If someone questions it, cite Rule 2-3.

i think a fight between teammates that does not effect the game should be the coach's problem. how is a T on that team and 2 ejections going to make any thing better - those 2 kids still have to be on the same bench and the coach still has to deal with them. sounds like this situation is best handled by their coach and program. jmo

Are you serious? Just ignore a <b>fight</b>?

Lah me.....

Let's see that is 2 indirects to the coach. Tell him one more and he can escort those two to the locker room himself.

Bingo, but use R10-4-1 instead to cover bench personnel committing an unsporting foul. That says "bench personnel shall not commit an unsporting foul" and also uses the same "includes but not limited to" language. Whatintheheck could be deemed more "unsporting" than an actual fight, no matter who is fighting?

Just my $0.02, but any team member (includes coaches, players, & other bench personnel) that throws a punch at anyone is history - Flagrant T, no exceptions. If they're bench personnel at the time, HC also gets an indirect. In Oregon, adults are ejected from the venue & players are DQ'd but stay on the bench.

If it solely invloves spectators, then suspend play until game management/security get it under control.

wtf is lah me...why get involved in a teams dirty laundry?

If fighting is defined as something between opponents, not sure I am going to get involved in that either. I really do not care what someone else might do.

Peace

Here's my JuCo conference's interp concerning fighting between teammates (excerpted from one of our quizzes):

This may not apply where you officiate. These are NCAA rules references:

Teammates A1 and A-2 are arguing on their way to their bench after the TO is granted. A1 verbally abuses A2 and both grab each other and fall to the floor. Make a call. What do you call?

You are right if you review the current 2006-07 Rule Book and conclude that there is a contradiction in Rule 4-23 and Rule 10-17. The contradiction has been dully noted by Ed Bilik, NCAA, for a change in next year's Rule Book. In Rule 10-17.a .b .c, replace the word ‘opponent’ with the word ‘individual’ and that will eliminate the contradiction. As mentioned at the clinics, Rule 4-23 was a rewrite and inadvertently the change was not made in Rule 10-17. The intent of the rewrite of 4-23 was to clarify fighting and cover the situation described above since it is becoming a prevalent occurrence. At minimum direct technical fouls can be assessed to the Team A players, however, Rule 4-23 is the dominate rule and you are correct to charge both players with flagrant technical fouls and eject them for fighting.

As BillyMac stated already, though, the beginning of this rule states that fighting includes, but "is not limited to", acts mentioned in Article 1 and 2.

Great idea. Don't get involved. Get some popcorn and grab a good seat. Maybe get a couple of cheerleaders to carry those <b>Round Number</b> cards around. Hey, if it happens in the first half, maybe we can set up a re-match for the second half. And if the coach doesn't really feel like doing anything because it's <b>his</b> players and he don't want them suspended, and he decides to just put those players right back out on the court, hey, that's just peachy-keen too. Right?

Our responsibility is the game and it's participants. Somehow, I really don't think that any set of amateur rulesmakers in any sport would think that having a little ol' fight during the game is just fine with them, no matter who is fighting.

Well Said
 

Jurassic Referee: Well Said !!!

How about liability concerns for the officials involved ? If A-1 and A-2 fight in the first half, and if the officials don't address the situation, and if A-1 and A-2 fight again in the second half, and if this time A-1 falls down, fractures his or her skull and dies, will the officials be considered negligent in the application of the rules, and will the lawyer of A-1's family get involved ?

Geeze.

How about we all stop worrying that little Bobby might fall down and crush his skull leading to a long, drawn out painful death and even longer, more drawn out and painful lawsuit.

Let's just do what's right because it's right.

Amen, Brother Daniel!

A couple of years ago, there was a POE about unsporting behaviour being addressed even if it was directed at the same team. I seem to recall the example was the coach using profanity at his team during a TO. I'd use the same POE to address the fight.

Now, that said, I'd give more leeway to an ... animated discussion, or a slap or similar between teammates than I would if the actions were between opponents.

Jurassic in case you had a hard time reading what I wrote here it is again

if it effects the game then I will have to deal with it -- either a direct T on both and indirects on the coach if they are on the bench and spill into the court. if they are players (and I CANNOT IMAGINE THIS HAPPENING) I would have 2 direct T's (for unsporting conduct) again and a delay of game warning (or maybe a t if they had one of these earlier) for holding up the game. That's just how I would handle it and A flagrant T to me still somehow requires an opponent.

however if they get into it by the bench and we are playing I would play on -- however if it spillith on to my court then I have an issue.

Isn't the bench under your jurisdiction as well?

Who cares if they are on the same team and that the rule book mentions "opponents" fighting....They are bench personnel and they aren't doing what they are supposed to be doing...sitting there and watching the game....


2 T's to the bench and 2 indirect to the coach......let the coach figure out the rest.

If the game was stopped due to the fighting and the players fighting were part of bench personnel, then T is warranted. The confineds of the court including bench is the pure responsibilities of the officials. If the official can have fanboys ejected from the stand for throwing items on the court, what would be different in concept with fighting on the bench..

Are they sitting down while they're fighting? Hit them with Ts for standing. Hit them with Ts for cursing. Hit them with Flagrants for fighting. Just hit them with something.

Patently freaking ridiculous imo. If they fight on the bench, just keep the game going. Play on folks. Don't mind that little brawl over there, folks. Just pretend it's not really happening. And if happens again next period, well, ignore it then too.

If it spilleth out onto the floor, what are you gonna call? Illegal substitution?

Btw, you said that you could not imagine that happening? Well, I've had it happen <b>twice</b> in high school football games. Once out on the field, once on the sideline. I didn't ignore either situation.

JR good for you