10 second count, when does it start?
 

I apologize if this is a dumb question.

I have always started my 10 second count once the ball is touched by the inbounding team on a throw in. A veteran partner told me that a 10 second count actually includes the 5 seconds that are allotted for the throw in. So, for example, if a team takes 3 seconds to inbound the ball, they then only have 7 seconds to get it to their frontcourt.

I can't find any reference in the rule book stating that this is the case and obviously this would have a huge impact on games so I need to know the correct way.

Please define veteran partner! :eek:

Are you sure your "veteran partner" isn't actually a coach? Or...Billy Packer? :rolleyes:

See NF 9-8.

He's been officiating for ~ 8 years....a really nice guy. I didn't think it sounded right and I haven't asked because I felt like it was a really dumb question and that I possibly had been doing something wrong all year.

9-8 just states that the ball can't be in the backcourt for 10 seconds, but doesn't mention if the time it takes to inbound the ball counts towards that.

I thought it sounded strange, but this was a veteran guy so it surprises me that he would tell me that.

If the ball is OOB, it's not in the backcourt.

There is no backcourt until a team has established control. Put another way; team control must be established in order to determine where the backcourt is. A player must be holding or dribbling the ball in bounds in order to establish team control.

9-8 states that "A player shall not be, nor may his/her team be, in continuous control of a ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds." There is no team control or player control on a throw-in (4-12-6), so until the throw-in has ended there can be no player or team control. The count would start when player control is established after the throw-in ends.

Thanks guys. I figured that was the case, I just didn't want to ask a stupid question.

Yup. The throw-in ends when the ball is <b>touched</b> on the court. The 10-second count starts when the offensive team gains player control in their backcourt-i.e.a player is holding or dribbling the ball. There also might be a lapse of quite a few seconds between the end of the throw-in and the establishment of player control.

It always amazes me to see officials starting their backcourt count when the ball was touched but not controlled, and was still loose.

Rookie Mistake
 

I hate to admit this, but I still remember a mistake I made over twenty-years ago in a junior varsity game. After a made free throw, I called a ten-second backcourt violation. The coach went nuts because only 8 seconds had ticked off the clock since the made free throw. I had to give him a technical foul, one of the few given throughout my career. In the car on our way home after the game, my partner and I discussed the play. We wondered if the timekeeper had started the clock too late, or if I had counted too fast. We finally figured out that because of a pressing defense, the inbounding team had taken four seconds to get the ball inbounds, and I had mistakenly carried over the four second count into my ten second count. I knew the correct rule, I just screwed it up. After the ball was inbounded, I only counted six more counts, in eight seconds, to call the violation. I called the athletic director the next day and asked her to apoligize to the coach for me. The next time I saw the coach, we both laughed about it.

Our local board interpreter now advises us to use two different arms to make these two counts so this mistake doesn't happen. If we make the five second count with our right arm, we switch over to our left arm for the ten second count. Our interpreter also advises us to switch arms as we change our five second closely guarded counts, from a dribbling count to a holding count or from a holding count to a dribbling count.

How would this work in regards to chopping in the clock? Is the chop in "1"?

I would chop in when it is touched and then begin the 10 count when player control begins.

Let's say, though, that there's no contesting of the throw in and player control begins as soon as A2 touches the ball (thrown by A1). Let's also assume that I'm administering the throw-in from the right side of the basket facing upcourt. So I'm on the outside of the shooter, whistle in mouth, my right hand up to signal the clock, and I hand A1 the ball with my left hand and begin the count with my left hand. As soon as A2 touches the ball and has control (again, we're assuming for this case that it's at the same time), I chop the clock in. Then should I use the same hand to do the 10-second count or should I use my other hand?

Sorry, I'm still brushing up on my mechanics.

Personally, I do my 10-second count with the hand I chopped the clock.

Consider your chop-in as "0". Then continue along with 1 from there. Use whatever arm feels good to you but I'm with BNR and use the same arm I chop in with.

Using different arms when switching from one count immediately to another was also a Fed mechanic clarification for the 04-05 season.

...and you end your count in the backcourt when ...?

I don't switch counts when I'm going from throw-in to 10 second count. I count my 10 second count with my outside arm. So sometimes I switch arms depending on where the throw-in is (determines what arm i'm counting with for throw-in) but I don't make sure it is switched.

Johnny, when do you end your 10-second count? (not being condescending). What do your instincts tell you?

Was this veteran partner an old school kind of guy?:D

I do all of my throw-in counts in the backcourt or for a throw-in which might be passed into the backcourt with my arm that will be away from the table as I turn and face downcourt. This allows me to switch arms and make my 10-second count towards the table and the benches.

So if I am tableside Trail with the table on my left as I face the basket of the team with the ball, I would do the throw-in count with my right arm and then the 10-second count with my left arm.

And, FWIW (not much), I do the opposite. My throw-in count is with the "outside" hand, and the other hand is the 10-second count. So, it might be toward the table or opposite the table. If there's no throw-in, then I count with the hand toward the table.

Count continues until the ball acquires frontcourt status for the team in control. So if the defense dislodges the ball but does not gain control, count continues until the defense gains control [in which case they are probably already in their frontcourt] or the offense gets the ball into their frontcourt; if the defense gains control and then loses control, a new 10-count is begun.

A pass in which the 10-count ends while the ball is in the air but "over the frontcourt itself" would still count as a violation because the ball maintains backcourt status until it touches the frontcourt.

For the dribbler coming from the backcourt to the frontcourt, the count continues until both the ball and the dribbler's two feet have acquired frontcourt status.

Did I miss anything?

I am with you all on this technique. I have practiced with the shot clock to get the timing down. Chop = 0, 1 & a 2, & a 3 etc. using the same hand I chopped in time.

Yup......
<b>"Veteran"</b> does not equal knowledgeable....or good.