Marked Men

[RushmoreRef]

Went into a game the other night in which we knew we had players from both teams that are a handful (physical, talkers, the whole deal)...We'll say they are A1 and B1.

With about 5 minutes to go in the half, A1 fouls B1 hard from behind on a rebound and both fall to the ground in front of me (C) with their legs tangled. I run in to separate and as I get there A1 tries to get up in a hurry and B1 grabs A1's leg because they are all tangled. A1 responds by kicking her leg, not at B1 but kicking it to get loose. During all this I'm right there saying "relax" and "up easy".... Neither I or my partners see any kicks land but it looked ugly and the crowd's reacted accordingly.

We're in front of B's bench and their coach goes nuts saying "She kicked her right in the face" and calls timeout mostly to yell at me about how cheap the other girl is and how much problem they had with her last season, he wants her tossed and we've got nothing....I explain that the kick didn't land and was instigated by his girl grabbing her foot....He wouldn't leave it alone so I finally said "that's what I've got, you don't have to like it but we're going with it".....

Going by that, should I have done what I did....or a double T since they were both girls that have been problems in the past? B's coach would have gotten a "T" 9 times out of 10 but I don't "whack him" because of the situation that led up to it...Right or Wrong?

[Ref Daddy]

You called it - we go with it.

Consider the "tangle" as an opportunity to warn both players. A couple of double fouls clearly sends the message. Don't forget that option.

Sounds like the coach's motivation might have been, or included, removing an aggressive player. I bet she was good(?) too.

Talk to your partners and keep a close eye on the tandem.

Don't let the bench or crowd influence what you see and how you call the game.

[Ignats75]

I agree your instincts seemed pretty good there. I had a similar situation last month with two strong post player type boys. Same kind of thing. Crowd and coaches yelling T,T, over and over. We brought the two players together and warned them to stick to basketball and leave the street cred crap outside. They both tlaughed and we made them shake hands and that was it. No problems afterwards.

[buckrog64]

Sounds to me like you were right on top of the situation and while things look bad to those who are biased and sitting in the bleachers, if you trust yourself and what you saw and how you handled it, then play on from there. You may have given them a break there, and you can mention that to them and that it won't take much action from them to keep your attention and deal with it severely if necessary.

[RushmoreRef]

Correct...she was their best player and one of the best around.....although a royal pain....Her coach was great, of course, telling us to let him know if she continues to be a problem and he'd take care of it.

Was at the same school again Sat and saw the A1 girl riding the bench...I though uh, oh, the kick did land and we missed it...She was out with mono......talked with AD...he said both schools reviewed the film and there was no indication of a kick to the face....as far as they were concerned, "case closed"...Saw B coach that day also and he was still "Not happy"....know him fairly well and got the "walk the other way" when he saw me, Oh well not many coaches like me anyway, now there's one less ..... Good luck the rest of the year all...it's almost over.

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by Ref Daddy

... A couple of double fouls clearly sends the message. Don't forget that option...

I like this option. If I know I've got a couple players that don't like eachother, I'll watch for early off-ball shennanigans. First sign of trouble, a quick double foul for illegal contact is in order (T seems kinda severe, unless it's real nasty) . They usually get the messgage early and calm down.

Maybe others like to go to the T quicker, but I find a simple double personal works well for me.

[RushmoreRef]

This was all during a dead-ball situation....the only thing I can have there would be a technical foul correct?

[Bad Zebra]

Yes. In your particular case, dead ball fouls are techs or ignored for the most part. I was looking at it from a preventative angle. Trying to get it cleaned up early. In your case, didn't seem like you had much choice.

[RushmoreRef]

I see ... since you are already watching for these particular players get it early before something happens if you can ... we pre-gamed that and did catch A1 for an illegal screen early....she'd pretty heady, will pick up 2 or 3 dumb, cheap fouls and then back off

The reason why this situation was tough is because of how it progressed from a hard foul, to A1 trying to get up fast, to B1 grabbing her leg and A1 kicking free.... all happening in the time it took me to blow my whistle and cover the 15 feet between myself and the players. I'm just curious if I would have come with a "double T" if the situation would have been worse or better...other problem with a double T is it would have been two fouls on A1 giving her #2 and #3 still early in the second and the situation wasn't caused solely by her.

[Bad Zebra]

I'd be interested in hearing other vets weigh in on this one. I kinda follow your thought process. The reality is that you'd be saddling two players pretty early with T's that count toward the five. Now we all know that it's their actions that dictate thier foul totals, but the reality is: Do we want to pile on when we have other tools at our disposal? By-the-book guys are going to want to whack 'em and let the chips fall. Me, I'm still at a mindset where I try to avoid a T whenever I can. Maybe that will change with age and experience.

[SWMOzebra]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

I like this option. If I know I've got a couple players that don't like eachother, I'll watch for early off-ball shennanigans. First sign of trouble, a quick double foul for illegal contact is in order (T seems kinda severe, unless it's real nasty) . They usually get the messgage early and calm down.

I'm no vet by any stretch, but I totally agree with Bad Zebra and Ref Daddy. Catch 'em early off ball and hit both with a personal...no one feels like their being "unfairly" singled out and coaches/players know you're watching them. Usually makes the rest of the game go smoother (at least, between the two players in question).

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

Went into a game the other night in which we knew we had players from both teams that are a handful (physical, talkers, the whole deal)...We'll say they are A1 and B1.

...
and B1 grabs A1's leg because they are all tangled. A1 responds by kicking her leg, not at B1 but kicking it to get loose.

...

You seem to gloss over B1 grabbing A1's leg. I have never grabbed a leg and not known if it was mine or not. It seems either unsporting or provoking.
In what other part of the game does a player holding another player make kicking an accepted response?

Double T seems like a reasonable and usefull tool here.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

With about 5 minutes to go in the half, A1 fouls B1 hard from behind on a rebound and both fall to the ground in front of me (C) with their legs tangled. I run in to separate and as I get there A1 tries to get up in a hurry and B1 grabs A1's leg because they are all tangled. A1 responds by kicking her leg, not at B1 but kicking it to get loose.

Looks to me like you could have justified a single T on B1 for grabbing A1's leg. A1 didn't even try to actually kick B1, and she didn't make contact. Nothing there unless you note some sort of intent.

[RushmoreRef]

I agree that a "T" to B1 would have been acceptable...but that action was brought on by A1 trying to get up in a fast and abnormal way....It looked to me like B1 was grabbing the leg to slow A1 down and get their legs untangled, which then led to A1 kicking to get away..... I would have had a hard time selling the "T" on B1 since the leg thrashing of A1 was the most obvious part of the entire play, but that doesn't make it the wrong call either.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

I agree that a "T" to B1 would have been acceptable...but that action was brought on by A1 trying to get up in a fast and abnormal way....It looked to me like B1 was grabbing the leg to slow A1 down and get their legs untangled, which then led to A1 kicking to get away..... I would have had a hard time selling the "T" on B1 since the leg thrashing of A1 was the most obvious part of the entire play, but that doesn't make it the wrong call either.

Another reason it's best to see a play before commenting authoritatively, it looks like you did just fine here. Nothing to call, warn the kids, explain to the coaches if appropriate, and get the ball in play quickly.