Stop Sign
 

Went to scout a game tonight. Saw two officials that have been calling a long time. One was very very arrogant. A coach questions a call, I don't mean flipping out, just questioning. The official gives him the stop sign 3 times. The coach turns to walk away, makes about three steps and official gives him a T. Coach didn't even know he got it. I think the whole situation could have been avoided if there wasn't a "stop" sign. They went to line up and shoot free throws before he knew he got it. All of this happened 2 minutes left in the first quarter. Guess it was a sign, game turned out to be a pretty fun battle.

Sounds to me, that it was an official, who thought he was part of the Gestapo. Officials have to realize that the coaches and fans are their customers.

Maybe the ref had a bad experience with the coach.

I think the whole situation could have been avoided if there wasn't a "stop" sign

How would you have handled it?

Did you hear what the coach said as he turned his back and walked away?

[QUOTE=badgerfan]
Gestapo.

The German internal security police as organized under the Nazi regime, known for its terrorist methods directed against those suspected of treason or questionable loyalty.
gestapo pl. -pos. A police organization that employs terroristic methods to control a populace

WOW!! I had to look up this word. I do not believe this was the case. The official show a little restraint in my opinion by giving the coach the STOP SIGN!! three times.


Were you there to hear what was said to the official?

The coach could have said something for the official to penalize. He gave the STOP SIGN three times already. Although, it does not look to appealing when giving the T signal to the back of a coach. He/(s)he needs to see it coming. Pesonally, I do not like the word Gestapo used in describing how the situation was handle now understanding what it means.

[QUOTE=truerookie]I have refereed football and basketball and use the word "Gestapo" for veteran partners who think that they have the power to rule all.

These veteran officials forget that the players and coaches are their customers.

Logical thinking does not prevail during athletic competition for some of these officials. Communication with coaches and players is vital.

My opinion, on my first year of officiating youth basketball and football.

Those statements tie for the dumbest ever made on this forum.

Coaches are not allowed to question any call made by an official, outside of the correctable errors listed in R2-10 and possible bookkeeping and timing mistakes. If you had any kind of clue as to what was actually written in the rules, you might have known that.

Your Gestapo comment is just plain ignorant imo.

You are a coach. You think like a coach. You do <b>not</b> think like an official. A coach is not allowed to question an official's call. If they do, they do so at their own risk. You also don't know all of the dynamics of the play, but you sureasheck rush to dump on the official. From what I've seen so far of you, that's just typical. Don't blame the use of the stop sign for the technical foul. Blame the coach who acted in an unsporting manner and caused the technical foul by doing so.

Besides, the coach was probably just trying to get one of those strategic technical fouls that I've heard so much about. That makes it all OK.

This is the very reason I cannot stand it when people are so adamant to advocate the stop sign. For one it did not work here and no matter how much the official is in the right, you look like an aggressor.

Secondly you have absolutely no idea what was said to that official. For all you know he could have said, "You are the worst f#$K### official I have ever seen and I wish you would go to hell!!" Unless you heard exactly what was said, you cannot sit here and tell anyone what should or should not have been done.

This just goes to show the gesture of the "stop sign" did not work if anything it might have incited the coach to react or say something out of line. I can accomplish the same thing by walking up slowly to a coach with my hand over my face and say just about anything and no one knows what I said except the coach and me. I could threaten a coach. I could curse them out. Or I could just say OK and everything I say looks non-threatening and not confrontational. You can warn a coach in this way and get the desired result. I must be doing something right. I have not had to T many coaches this year and in previous years. And I do not use the stop sign.

Peace

Using the stop sign is not a bad thing if done properly.

Had he told the coach, "I've heard enough," and then went about his business, the ball would then have been in the coach's court. He then makes the decision whether he gets a T or not.

The mistakes were being arrogant, if he truly was, and warning the coach three times.

Fans and coaches are customers? Sorry but that's bull$hit. Officials are there to administer the game, not to bend over to the whims and desires of fans and coaches.

Good Lord, if fans and coaches are customers, does that mean we also have to believe the old adage that "the customer is always right?":rolleyes:

Customers pay for goods and services. I don't think the fans or coaches pay you.

I've had coaches like this one in the scenario. Often times you get that last comment when the coach turns. And that's the one that earns the "T".

Agree. And using it properly is treating it exactly the same as you would treat a verbal warning. You warn once, and then you have to back up your warning if it gets ignored. If you don't, there's no use warning in the first place. Using the stop sign three times was a mistake, as you said. Using it once isn't. And using a stop sign sureasheck doesn't make any official "arrogant" either.

Exactly.....and fanboys in the stand don't hear the comment,but they'll label the official "arrogant" if he issues a righteous "T".

That's exactly why I'm so skeptical when I read these reports about the nasty old officials screwing somebody's team. There's <b>always</b> two sides to a story, and we're only getting one.

I laugh as soon as I hear the words "arrogant" about an official. The operative word in this scenario is three. The only mistake the official made was issuing three warnings. As soon as he got to two they became meaningless. He might as well have picked his nose for all the good it did him.

I always distrust a poster that comes on here and wants to throw an official under the bus for a call. That usually tells me two things.

1. The poster is not an official
2. Therefore the poster doesn't know WTF he's talking about.

Last coach I T'd up had turned and walked away from me; and as he did so he turned his head back and told me to "shut up".

How do you know what the coach said to the official?

:D I guess everyone knows that I agree with this.
See how this turned out? The all powerful stop sign didn't work at all. What would have been the difference if he would have just talked to the coach? We are humans and they are humans, I'm often concerned about why we can't communicate in a manner where neither one is put on the defensive.
I just emailed my assignor about unsportsmanlike behavior by coaches last night. We need to make sure sportsmanship is appropriate for high school or college basketball across the board. It has already got to the point where kids are doing things deserving of technical fouls, but the legal system will step in. Where is all this going?

BTW, IMO all good officials have some level of arrogance.

I have officiated and was starting to have some success. I understand the officials point of view, believe me. When I first started, a lot of older guys told me not to "put up with crap" from coaches. I had a lot harder time when I had this attitude. When I would allow a coach to say his piece, and then move on, the game would flow a lot smoother. It seems to me that some officials feel like a coach has absolutely no right to even speak to an official. In the situation I was talking about, the official gave the stop sign immediately. How could he have had enough (which is what the stop sign means, correct?) when the game just started. I'm not saying he was right or wrong. If he wanted to set this tone for the game then he was right. I was just saying there may have been a different way to handle the situation.

So since this particular official used the stop sign incorrectly, it's wrong for all officials to use it? :confused:

Bull$hit. That's like saying just because something doesn't work for one official, it should never be used by any official.

You make it sound like every official who uses the stop sign is a poor communicator. That's totally and completely false. When I use it, it's because even though I've communicated all night long with a coach, he has now made it apparent that he isn't going to listen to me, know matter how much I've listened to him. It's my way of saying, "OKay caoch, I've listened to you, you're not listening to me, so I'm not listening any further. Enough." Now, if he can't understand that when I say, "Coach, I've heard enough," that's a warning, then he's going to find out that I was serious.

Should the stop sign be used only in certain situations at a certain point? Certainly. Is it wrong to use it appropriately? No, it is not.

BTW, the stop sign seemed to work pretty good when Gary Maxwell gave it to K on Wednesady night.

Last year at a meeting, one of our senior officials told us to use our hands as little as possible. He said using hand motions was giving too much information. Just his take.

So I guess he blows his whistle, runs to the table, tells the scorer who fouled and never uses his hands for anything. I hope he at least points when the ball goes OOB. :rolleyes:

Do you know <b>why</b> the official gave the coach the immediate stop sign? Do you also know <b>what</b> the coach said that might have meant an immediate "enough" from the official? Nope, but that doesn't stop you from implying that the the official was wrong to give that immediate stop sign. And it didn't stop you from labeling the official as "arrogant" either.

You sureasheck are saying the official was wrong.

I have never had anyone show me how to use this signal "properly" or when to not use the signal. I have seen it used but as illustrated here, it works sometimes and does not work sometimes. I would rather use a signal that seems to have a better precentage of success.

If it works for you and others it is your prerogative to do so. That does not mean that some of us cannot think it is a poor move. The T might have been completely justified, but as shown someone watching makes a judgment that the official was being the aggressor rather than reacting to bad behavior. Remember, perception is often reality. Life is not fair and people will draw conclusions we might not like.

I was sitting and talking with a guy in my association last night (with JeffPea as well) that works in the Big Ten and a couple of other D1 conferences in our region. We were talking about handling coaches and situations, not once did this official say anything about using the stop sign or making it the big deal we tend to make it hear. Every story or situation he talked about his words that worked than a gesture that seems to have very mixed response from the people that we are trying to influence. I do not think coaches got the memo that this means something specific.

Peace

I don't think I ever said that it is wrong for all officials to use it because of this one situation. You pulled that out of your a$$.
Please don't tell me what I make something sound like; I hope to be able to communicate exactly what I want to get across.

When in your adult life has someone gave you a stop sign or told you to talk to the hand and you received it well AND stopped talking immediately?

One of the main reasons I don't like the stop sign is because people on here make it seem like it is a required step in the process to give a coach a T. Also, as pointed out earlier, the percentages aren't in your favor when using this tactic with another adult.

You know what my way of saying coach I've heard enough? I say, "Coach, I've heard enough." :D If you have been communicating with a coach all night long and they don't stop whatever it is they're doing, it is your problem if you have to give them a stop sign. If I have that situation it will more than likely end up in a technical foul.

You can do things how you like to do them and I will do things how I like to do them. Your way seems to be working for you and my way is working for me.

This is why some officials are successful and others are not. You have to do what works for you, not what works for other people.

Peace

Well, I'm afraid you aren't communicating very effectively. Perhaps you're pulling things out of your own ***. You certainly talk out of it quite often.

I've qualified my statements. I've stated the stop sign can be bad if not used correctly. I've also stated that it can be good when used properly. All you've ever written is that it's bad. Well guess what...you're wrong. It's not always a bad tool to use. I think the fact that we see a veteran ACC official use it in the biggest rivalry in college sports is a testament to that. But I guess you know more than he does.

I don't know that anyone has ever told me to talk to the hand or given me a stop sign. It's not something you run into in every day life.

It's a warning. I prefer to give a warning before giving a T. If you don't, then bang away!

Great. But don't ridicule everyone who doesn't do it your way! I'm not advocating that officials use it or not use it. OTOH that's exactly what you're doing.

Hmm..."have officiated" and "was?" Not trying to wade too far into the are you an official or not debate, but, hmmm...also, "I understand the officials point of view," hmm. Interesting use of past tense and "understand" almost seems as though you're an abserver rather than participater...Hmm. Anyway, not that it matters.

As of today, I'm about 75 games into my first season officiating. When I first started, I "had a lot harder time" when I gave some coaches too much latitude to say their piece. The thing is, the pieces kept coming and coming. I have now adopted the philosophy that I won't put "up with crap" from coaches. As long as they say their piece here and there, fine, but it's when the pieces add up to a whole pie (apple, that is), that's when I will no longer put up "with the crap."

When you state, OR, how could he have had enough, I might be wrong, but wasn't it at the end of the 1st? Had the coach said "his piece," and said his "piece" again and again in the 1st quarter? If so, then maybe the pieces added up to a whole pie (cherry, this time) and the official no longer could "put up with his crap."

I'm advocating officials not use anything in a robotic manner where they have to do steps 1, 2, 3 and 4. Life isn't like that. What I hope to have accomplish is provoke some thought about the fact that people communicate successfully with people everyday without giving them a stop sign. When a coach is coaching and I'm officiating, we are still people.

You speak of me not giving a warning. There you have it right there! You are basically saying you use it every time before you give a T and I think that is robotic. If you don't use it everytime, like you mentioned earlier, then you are giving a T without warning too. Is that right or wrong? If I tell a coach I've heard enough without throwing up my hand, is that not giving a warning.

If you have a dissagreement with your wife do you follow the same steps everytime? Probably not.

Basically, I chose to advocate not using a stop sign everytime by saying you shouldn't use one at all while you are (you remained mum a lot of the time when I mention it) saying it works in some situations, but not all. I say it is robotic, you just say (today) that it works some times and not all times. It seems like your stance is either quiet or generic.

You have mentioned the ACC several times and I can understand since you are in the middle of ACC country, but let me ask you a question. I've met Gary Maxwell and he seems like an OK guy/official to me (in other words the statement to follow isn't about him), but do you think that every official in a D1 conference got there because of their ability to officiate a basketball game? Surely you aren't that gullable.

Just so that I'm on the record here too, Tom, I also think that a stop sign works fine in some situations, but certainly not in all situations. It's simply a non-verbal warning and you use it the same way as you use a verbal warning. It's one and done. it's just another tool in our toolbox. I can't see why it can't be used on appropriate occasions, and most experienced officials readily know what those appropriate occasions are too imo.

I know that it's a personal peeve of yours, but do you really feel that a stop sign should <b>never</b> be used? Or am I reading you wrong?

For the record, I certainly don't think that using a stop-sign is a game interrupter either.:D

Ignore list updated
 

tomegun, that maybe the stupidest post you've ever posted on this forum.

I said I prefer to warn before I give a T. I never said I always do anything. No one here is advocating any type of robotic bull$hit. I have no idea WTF you came up with that idiotic crap.

Just because I don't reply every time you post on this topic, that means I'm remaining "mum?" LOL! I didn't know I was required to reply every time you post. Please resend the memo because I didn't get it.

Finally, Gary worked the biggest rivalry game in college basketball on Wednesday night. He was the alternate at the Final Four last year. he's respected across the country. But he was in these positions because of who he knows?

Right. It's apparent that you're already drunk, early on a Friday night.

I done with you. I just hope others keep responding to you so you want continue to mislead others. As for me, you're a waste of my time.

Rather the "Stop" or this?:p

http://home.officiating.com/scbowbo/images/hall_tee.jpg

Thank you for putting me on your ignore list since you are acting like a dumba$$. I said I know Gary Maxwell, he is a good guy and I (literally) said my comments were not about him. How can I say my comments were not about him any clearer.

You are sitting there saying I'm drunk and you don't even know what day it is! It isn't Friday, it is Saturday.

You are hilarious - every time someone says something that you don't agree with you put them on your ignore list. Newsflash: you are not better than anyone else and you can be wrong sometimes. My sensationalizing of using the stop sign has caused a disagreement between us. I think the fact that you choose to exercise your right to ignore me because of this disagreement says something about how you react to disagreements and could indicate how you treat others who don't feel the same way you do. Pretty sad.

Jurassic, this is how I feel about the stop sign: there is a time and a place for it, but it isn't really for me. It just doesn't seem like is a natural part of non-confrontational communication to me. I will verbally warn a coach when appropriate and then continue with a technical foul. Just like you've pointed out, giving this public warning puts the official in a position where they must T a coach the next time something happens or else their credibility could suffer. My posts about stop signs came about because it seemed to me like many people were talking about using the stop sign as if it was a required step towards a coach getting a T. That is why I talk about it being robotic. So, no, I don't feel like the stop sign should never be used, but my personal preference would probably be to not use it. I won't say I will never use it because that would be an absolute I might not live up to.

Sounds logical to me. It shouldn't be a required step imo either. It does have value in some circumstances though, also imo. One of those circumstances being loud, noisy gyms. Another one might be a tv or taped game where you want it on the record that you warned the coach and he ignored your warning, earning himself a "T".

FWIW, Tom, I read your comment in this thread about the "all powerful stop sign" much as I think Tony read it.

And, my opinion for the record: SOmetimes it's needed; sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's properly used, sometimes it's not.

Also, it *looks* bad for an official to T a coach who is walking away. It might not *be* bad, though.

I think you guys are reading Tom incorrectly concerning the Stop Sign.

He has a problem when someone posts a situation where a coach gets a Tech and someone will respond "Did you give him the Stop Sign first?" as if it's an automatic progression and/or procedure when giving a Tech.

Well, I specifically asked Tom to explain his thoughts so that I wouldn't read him incorrectly. I think that his last explanation was pretty clear.

Personally, this discussion is getting about as stale as the discussion on the baseball board about helmets vs. masks. Who cares what you use? I will not be using the stop sign because I think it does nothing to help the situation. If you want to use it go right ahead. There is a reason why some people get far and others do not. You have to make choices that work for you and if it works for you, use it. It does not work for me and I cannot think of any T where it proceeded with a stop sign.

Peace

Hmmm...how about that?

Then, we have Jurassic, asking tomegun to explain his position. So it seems that several of us interpreted tomegun's comments the same way. Yet, I'm the one who can't communicate. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra.../shakehead.gif

Really? Gee, I must have missed that thread.

Can you reference that thread/post for me so that I can read it? :confused:

Tony, like Rut said do what works for you. I don't see myself using it in the future though.

So BktballRef and Bob read my comments the same.
Jurassic asked me to clarify.
BadNewsRef was on point with what I was trying to say.

Ironically, this is what I take from that. Someone ASSumed, someone asked and BNR knows me so he knows where I'm coming from. I have no problem with that.