Know the rules!!!
 

Eighth grade girls, I'm T in a two man. Way down by the baseline, A1 goes to one knee to gather a loose ball. Right in front of my partner, she puts down her dribble and then stands up. I'm applauding her in my head. TWEET! Traveling! AAAARGH!

The coach knew the call was wrong and she just shook her head in disgust. I couldn't blame her.

This is a tough situation for a partner. Do you go over and have a quick chat when you KNOW that your partner kicked a rule or do you let him live with his call?

As Scrapper1 would say, it's only 8th grade, who cares if the ref kicked the rule. :rolleyes:

Had a similar feeling in an 8th grade girls game yesterday. Partner administering a spot throw in near the division line. A1 has the ball looking to throw and... you know it... TWEET!, he calls her for traveling. She never left the spot, just shuffled her feet looking for an open teammate.

I think my reaction was the same as yours:(

Do you get 3 feet from the center of the spot throw?

Do you get 3 feet from the center of the spot throw?
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I like to give one stride left or right with no depth limitation. Thrower in can back up as much as they want

Rather than taking another shot at someone you disagreed with in another thread, why didn't you ask the OP'er what in the world he was doing watching the ball when it was so far out of his primary? Is it possible that maybe the partner saw something that the OP'er didn't since he was right there and OP'er wasn't? Don't know, but that's what first popped into my mind...you on the other hand just automatically assume this unknown official "kicked the rule"...

That is my sentiment exactly.

Peace

Me three. <i></i>

No. The designated spot is three feet wide, so that would be one and half feet from the center of the spot. ;)

If he did or didn't kick the call, it doesn't matter, because it's an 8th grade game. That's my sarcastic point.

Yeah, that's what I said. Nice editorializing. Here's a "roll eyes" for you, too. :rolleyes:

Is someone trying to set a record for the shortest locked thread? :D

I agree with the other three. Who was watching the other 9 players? I guess some people will go to some extreme lengths to get into a game free and see the game from a good vantage point!

We might kick a call, but we should never kick a rule regardless of the level.

What about 4-44 Art. 5 A player holding the ball:
a. May not touch the floor with a knee or any part of the body other than and or foot.
b. After gaining control while on the floor and touching with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.

OP said she started a dribble, then stood up, legal.

Obviously I am new and learning so I enjoy these clarifications that everyone goes thru regardless how silly they seem to the old timers. It has always been planted in my head that if a player went down to recover a loose ball and got up without passing the ball first, it is traveling. Thus my interpretation from the rule I listed. If I understand you correctly, if the player starts their dribble before getting up there is no travel.
Thanks

The key is "loose ball".....

I hate to be stubborn, but I am trying to find a rule that counters what this says, loose ball or otherwise. In my feeble mind Rule 4-44 Art. 5 (b) is referring to a loose ball that is now in control by a player that is touching the floor by something other than hand or foot. Thus by rule would not be able to get up. It does not make an exception for dribbling. Please tell me where to find the counter rule to this; I do not see anything regarding this in the Cartoon rule book either. I am sure it must be somewhere because everyone on the thread seems to agree with it.
Thanks,

Now you've got it.

If a player secures control of the ball and THEN touches the floor with anything other than a hand or foot, it is a travel.

If a player secures control of the ball WHILE touching the floor with something other than a hand or foot, he may begin a dribble (or pass, or shoot, or request time-out). Once the dribble is started, he may get up off the floor.

Aaah that makes it clearer. The before and after. Ha Now I can tell these kids the proper way to get up, instead of just calling the for traveling.
Thanks

Splute, did you purchase the Case Play book along with you Rule Book?

Section 44: Traveling
Article 1


Art. 1... A player who catches the ball with both feet on the floor, may pivot, using either foot. When one foot is lifted, the other is the pivot foot.


Art. 2... A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot.
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.
b. If one foot is on the floor:
1. It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.



[See corresponding Case Rule for Situation 4.44.2]


Art. 3... After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
c. The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.



[See corresponding Case Rule for Situation 4.44.3]


Art. 4... After coming to a stop when neither foot can be a pivot:
a. One or both feet may be lifted, but may not be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. Neither foot may be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.


Art. 5... A player holding the ball:
a. May not touch the floor with a knee or any other part of the body other than hand or foot.
b. After gaining control while on the floor and touching with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.



[See corresponding Case Rule for Situation 4.44.5]


:D

Yes I did. I have the Rules, Case Book, Illustrated and Officiating. I see Jcarter is breaking it down for me so let me look them up.

Thanks that is what I was looking for. When it is in black and white it makes it soooo much easier. I was not familiar with the ruling of lying on the back and not allowed to turn over either. Thanks again.

Wouldn't that be where the coaches are?

No, I guess you didn't get what I was saying. Basically, I was talking about an official on the court ball-watching. Next time I will add the ;)

Splute, in the back of the rule book is a page called Basketball Fundamentals...one of the statements in there is that you cannot travel while dribbling the ball. Take a look at those statements - they are pretty interesting...

Correct, I have read them several times. That in itself seems obvious. In this case I was trying to get specific ruling to specific words that states what can touch the floor or it is traveling. At the time, (loose ball recovery) the player is on the floor, they are not dribbling; only in the process of getting up does it become vital. Jcarter sent me to the place in the case book I needed. You'da thought I would have figured out how to reference the books by number sooner, huh... :rolleyes: I appreciate the patience and help. I want to do the best job I can.

It sure matters to those 8th grade girls, thier parents and coaches.

I've been told (and agree with) to call every game like its the most important game being played that night...because to someone, it probably is.

I guess thats why it was his "sarcastic" point :-)

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

:)

Well said :) Leave it to a good ole Texas boy....

Like you guys have never seen a partner kick a call out of your primary. It was a full court press, I was at midcourt, and I could see the baseline through the players spread out in their diamond. Next time I'll shield my left eye.

Don't worry about it mplagrow. Everyone on this board at one time or another, has complained about a partner kicking a call and you know damn well they were watching it too. Some people have their ref halos on just a little too tight and can get pretty judgmental of others.;)

I think you are being little disingenuous here. I cannot speak for anyone but for myself on this topic. But I know if my partner makes a call that is clearly in their area, I am not watching that closely to know they missed a call. Now I might "think" I saw something, but I usually do not "know" for sure. The reason for this is I am not watching all in the area of my partner. This has nothing to do with a "halo," this has to do calling the game properly. Of course there are situations where we are watching similar things, but based on our angle it does not mean we are right that something was missed. I know there are things I thought I was 100% right about, only to see the tape later and show me a different perspective.

Peace

Yep...especially people who come on and tell us how horrible their partner was for "kicking" a call that was more than half the court away from them, and the others who lament with them at what a horrible partner that must have been to work with...gotta loosen up those halos, don't they!:D

Exactly correct. Sometimes we think we see things out of our area and we actually see it wrong. That is why the percentage of correct calls goes down when we call out of our area. Also, those of us wearing halos :rolleyes: would tell you in a heartbeat that we can evaluate someone else's plays best when we are on the sidelines with a pen and paper.

Designated Spot
 

The designated spot is three feet wide. If a player must keep one foot over the designated spot, and if that player has a very long stride, doesn't that designated spot really become about nine feet wide?

No.

The designated spot is 3' wide. Period.

Citation Please
 

From Billy Mac: The designated spot is three feet wide. If a player keeps one foot over the designated spot, and if that player has a very long stride, that designated spot can become about nine feet wide

From Jurassic Referee: No. The designated spot is 3' wide. Period.

From: NFHS Rule 4-42-6-Note: The player in-bounding the ball must keep one foot on or over the 3' wide designated spot until the ball is released.

Jurassic Referee: Do you have any rule book or case book citations to back up your statement?

Forum members: Three-feet wide, no allowance for a normal stride by the inbounder as he or she throws a pass inbounds, or do you allow the player a normal stride that might be more than eighteen-inches from the center of the designated spot? What interpretation do you use in your local board or chapter?

Yup, NFHS rule 4-42-6--"The designated spot is 3 feet wide with no depth limitation."

All your rules interpreter is doing imo is confusing everybody with his 9' verbiage on a rule that is fairly clear. It's much easier if he just uses what's already in the rule book when he teaches officials what to look for. The designated spot is 3 feet wide. When you give the ball to the thrower, you assume that he's in the center of the 3' designated spot. The thrower now violates if he leaves the designated spot(R7-6-2 & 9-2-1). If the thrower does have one foot on or over either side of the 3' foot spot before releasing the throw-in, he's OK(CB7.6.2). The usual way to teach it is just to say "let the thrower take a full step to either side with his outside leg, bring his back leg to his outside leg, and then just watch the back leg to make sure that leg doesn't get moved any wider". That will keep a foot of the thrower within the designated spot.It's a judgment call anyway. If it's close, I always judge it in favor of the thrower, using the principle that if you're not sure it's a violation, then it isn't a violation.

Again, jmo Billie, but I think if your interpreter gets into trying to explain 9' wide designated spots, all he's doing is confusing new officials. They'll never find anything resembling that in the rule or case book that will match what they're being told.

Edited Post
 

Jurassic Referee: Please note my 8:31 p.m. edit to this thread after I your response got me to get my lazy butt out of this chair to get my rule book downstairs in my bag. I wouldn't do this for many posters on this Forum, but when you start citing rules, as the old Merrill Lynch commercial stated, "People listen".

Fact:The designated spot is 3 feet wide with no depth limitation.

Fact: NFHS Rule 4-42-6-Note: The player in-bounding the ball must keep one foot on or over the 3' wide designated spot until the ball is released.

Fact: A player may not travel while out of bounds.

If a player legally moves to the far right side of the three-foot wide designated spot, keeps one foot over that three-foot wide designated spot, and takes a normal two foot stride before releasing the ball (from my high school coach, "step into your pass"), his or her designated spot has now become five feet wide. The inbounder can choose to do the same thing on the left side of the designated spot (within five seconds), now making the designated spot seven feet wide. Now think about the tallest player that you've ever seen in a NFHS game, probably close to seven-feet tall. If you allow them their normal three foot (or longer) stride, we're now talking about a designated spot about nine-feet (or wider) wide.

Where is my thinking wrong?

Yup, and the thrower committed a throw-in violation as soon as he took that "normal two foot stride before releasing the ball". That "two foot stride" will take <b>both</b> feet of the thrower <b>out</b> of the 3' wide designated spot.

You can legally move to the far right side of the spot, but you sureasheck can't legally take any "two foot strides" after you do so. You get one normal step to either side, Billy, not two.

Stride ?
 

Jurassic Referee:

I just stepped away from my computer, kept one foot on the ground, and took one step, or stride, as far as I could go without taking my back foot off the ground. It was the width of my daughter's bed, measured with a ruler, it was approximately three feet, and I'm only six feet tall, and about as flexible as a marble statue. Maybe we're not understanding each other's image of this play? I believe that if, as the rule suggests, I'm allowed to "travel" in the designated spot, that I can legally make the throwin from area nine feet wide by an unlimited number of feet back (up to five seconds), without ever moving one of my feet outside the three foot wide designated spot. Please get out your yardstick and try it.

From one of your posts in this thread, I think, hopefully, that we agree. In a real game, I believe that both of us will legally allow a player to take one normal stride outside the three foot designated spot before making a throw in, as long as he or she does not move one of his or her feet outside the three foot wide designated spot and releases the ball within five seconds.

Why has this become a two person debate? Where are the other Forum members? Where's Chuck Elias?

Jurassic Referee: Thanks for not calling me any names in this thread. I appreciate your wisdom on this Forum, especially your useful rule and case book citations, but I dislike it when you lose patience and get involved with name-calling, oft times not started by you. I appreciate your patience with me in this thread, and thanks for your apology on your misunderstanding of one of my statements regarding adminstrative technical fouls (scorebook) in another thread. I'm relatively new to this Forum, I've only posted 180 times, and can't believe that I got an apology from "THE" Jurassic Referee.

First one since the Mesozoic Era, if I recall correctly.

BillyMac:

You got it. The designated spot, just like your daughter's bed, never becomes wider than 3'. You were confusing the actual area the player can cover with the spot itself.

1) That's basically what I've been saying too, Billy.

2) Chuck Elias has moved to Tampa Bay and taken a position during spring training as a towel boy at Legends Field.

3) You're welcome. Please note that there are no guarantees that this will carry over into future threads.:p(Actually, I'm trying to work on that. I can get too carried away sometimes- usually with some of the fanboys that slither out of the ooze at this time of the year).

Exactly and if you try to teach the concept using the same terms instead of just using "three foot designated spot", imo it's fairly easy to confuse newer officials because they have no reference in their books to something like "nine foot equivalent designated spot". Simple is best iow. I'm living proof of that.:D

The rule *could have* been written as something like "the designated spot is 7 feet wide, but the player must keep both feet in or over the spot". this would have roughly the same effect as "the spot is 3' wide; one foot must be kept over the spot."

The point is 1) watch the "back" foot, not the "front" foot, 2) use the rule book terms / rules when talking to / teaching other officials.

One Picture Is Worth ....
 

I believe it is a Chinese proverb that states "One picture is worth a thousand words". I guess that Jurassic Referee and I agree on the interpretation of the rule but the "wording" of my interpretation got in the way.

Thanks to other Forum members for joining in to help other Forum members, especially fans, coaches, and rookie officials, to understand this designated spot rule.

Mplagrow states: "First one since the Mesozoic Era, if I recall correctly".

Mplagrow: If I may use my unused (I'm now an analytical chemist) B.S. and M.S. in Geology, Jurassic Referee had not yet evolved in the early part of the Mesozoic Era. I don't know who officiated games in the Triassic Period, the age of much of the bedrock here in Central Connecticut. We've got plenty of fossil footprints of this official, but don't know who the official was that created them.

Got an update on that.

Boss George wouldn't offer him a contract, it's only a tryout. So now Chuck and Bernie are going to start their own towel boy services company.

Good luck to them both!