T on Coach with 10 seconds left
 

Preface the situation, worst game in 10 years of officiating.
2 player technicals for aguing calls one for A and one for B.
Coach of B gets indirect technical for player technical called after sub was made.
Assistant coach of A double T and ejected for coming onto the court, auguing call, and cursing at partner.
2 intentional fouls called on players (one on A and one on B).

I was the R and tried to talk to the remaining coaches and players about trying to just play basketball the last 5 minutes and remind both coaches that must stay in their seats for the rest of the game.

Coach A after being warned 2x to be seated after receiving indirect T, is given T by me with 10 seconds left for standing and coaching while A has the ball down by 2.

Should I just have ignored the coach?

tough one -- he was coaching -- i might have let this go as it is 10 seconds left and grated hes not standing to show pleasure for an outstanding play -- its 10 seconds of a lot of instruction depending on the level. but you did warn him -- judgement here and I would not call the T from what you describe.

now if he was an azz the whole game then no way -- but he probably would have gotten a T earlier and been ejected anyway because of the 3 T's he would have earned no?

Give him the T, stare at his pants then puke on his shoes. :p

Seriously, if you don't give the T, you lose credibility for all the other calls.

T after the first warning. Once you gave him a 2nd, he thinks he will be warned for the rest of the game. Better yet, don't give a warning because you already told him he had to be seated for the rest of the game because of the indirect.

Two warnings is one too many. Other than that, just fuggedaboutit. All you did was react to all of the unsporting acts being committed, and that's your job. The coaches/players were the ones that caused all the crap. There's not much else you can do in a game like that. You have to maintain control, no matter what, and it sounds like you did just that. Don't second guess yourself; move on.

The main questions I would have was what was going on the rest of the game to require Ts for questioning calls? Because if you were giving Ts just for any debate (which is your right to do BTW), then that would determine how much leeway I would give the coach with 10 seconds in the game. In a perfect world you should do everything you can to prevent complaining about calls unless the behavior is obvious to everyone. It sounded like the game was out of hand long before the last T. Unless the coach was yelling across the court or on the court making a scene, I might have just let it go or not stand anywhere he could come and get me with a comment easily.

Peace

I agree, especially since you already reminded them both about the seat belt with 5 minutes remaining.

I had a situation in a BJV game this year. A up by 15, A1 fouls B1 with 3 secs left. As I'm heading to administer the FT after reporting the foul, a team member from B asked "why didn't you call those when it f&$#ing mattered?" Wack. B's varsity coach was behind the table, I don't think he heard what was said, says that's a rookie call in a game like that. After the game I go visit with the varsity crew before their game (as I usually do) and ask their opinion. I was told -- where do you draw the line? Is it at 5 seconds? 10 seconds? The answer is you can't draw the line.

hbioteach, should you have ignored him? Only you can say for sure. I'm inclined to respect your judgment. For purposes of evaluating and thinking about future cases, I'll echo what others have either said or implied. It is *really* tough to T a coach in that spot, especially if you have not assessed the T for similar behavior previously. However, this coach IS gaining an advantage that s/he is not supposed to have, so I do recognize and applaud your willingness to take away the advantage.... The main lesson, I think, is to see if you can figure out a way to deal with behavior like this at a time in the game which is not in the last 10 seconds of the game. Sometimes, officials have no choice ... here it sounds like there may have been some choices available. Good luck.

This is an example where you don't really have a choice. If the kid says that no matter when he says it, you have to penalize it. Every official I can think of doing varsity-level ball in our association would call that just as you did. Either we're all "rookies" or you just made a varsity call. ;)

Although I agree with everything said here. There is something else to consider imo.
#1.) you got 10 seconds left to go in the game.
#2.) you got a close game, possible game winning shot situation.
#3.) you got the action on the floor you need to deal with now.

You've dealt with this bad situation and now you got 10 seconds left. It's downhill from here baby. 10 more seconds and I'm out of here. I don't have to look or deal with you folks anymore. I'm focusing down on the game, last second shot procedures, who's got the clock, let the players decide. Hopefully no overtime. Go home afterwards.

I'm going to go against the grain and recommend this for the next time. Others may say this is bad advise but I'm going to teach you some survivor skills. Take point #3 above, with 10 seconds left, don't look at the coach unless he says something to you, watch the action on the floor, 3, 2, 1, game over, go home. One more thing, since you know the coach is standing after you told him he couldn't, his player just might not get the call he needs, should there be a lot of contact on the last play, if you know what I mean.;)

Just when I start thinking that maybe Old Azz might have something going on upstairs after all, he comes out and tells someone to go ahead and cheat and adds a little wink like that would be really, really funny...

I don't have a problem with ignoring the coach for the last 10 seconds, but hbio, don't ever follow that last piece of crap advice...

Cheating is a survival skill or Survivor (as in the TV show) skill?

Seriously, read your words again. I know what you meant to say, but did you actually think about this idea before you posted it?

Wack Him. Period. Next time maybe he will learn to listen to the warnings.

You warned him, nuff said.

Old school said- Why not just call the game now? Why wait 10 seconds? do the last 10 seconds matter? If it were 1 minute and 1o seconds would you "T" him up? then do it now. It's still part of the game.

Personally, I can take care of the coaches and the palyers without shorting anyone.

"T"

Hang on there a second Terps Fan. Weren't you the one last week who posted about a coach "begging for a T", but you wouldn't give him one. If you wouldn't do it then, why do it now? Not criticizing, just curious.

Yeah, that's the same guy.

http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=31254

The OP admitted it was a bad game. He had already called about 6 technicals in the game. It didn't appear that the coaches was doing their part very well either to help makes things better. Nope, I told him he couldn't stand, he stood up anyway. That's not smart coaching. You demand the best out of me, how about you do your part. I would never tell anyone to cheat, shame on you for suggesting such a thing on a referee board. However, my judgment might be persuaded one way or the other depending on the circumstances. For example; if I got a real good game, I might call that marginal foul a foul, team/players earned it, however, under the same token, I'm at the end of a game that has gone bad, a marginal foul might not get called at all, it's my judgment. Game! Next! or go home.

Consider this if you will, you want me to call a 2-shot foul in a 2-point game with 10 seconds left that could potentially tie the game and send it to overtime, in a game that's gone bad! You think about that! We got coaches that don't respect your authority, players that are undiscipline. Survival skills young man, survival of the fittest and something they won't tell you out here but I will be honest with you, survival is really for the smartest. And last, I will preference this with, if I'm making $1200 per official for the game, we're playing it out and I'm ignoring the coach in the last 10 seconds. On the other hand, if I'm making $20 for the game, game over! Survival skills....

Hmmmmmm, let me think....my game was 20 point spread, the coach losing WANTED the "T". This game, 2 points. That's the difference.

This coach was warned. But still did what he wanted to do. What would happen if the other coach got up off the bench? what if they came out of their boxes? What's the penalty?

I understand " Let the kids decide" but this coach disobeyed his warning. Yeah, Let the kids decide, but the coach broke the rule. It's unfair to the team following the rules to allow the other team not to follow the rule. You put them at a disadvange.

Thanks for clearing that up.

So the coach who was publicly ripping you a new one was following the rules?

If the foul is deserved it should be called.

"marginal" - How does this word even come in to an Officials vocabulary? Thats like telling someone they are marginally pregnant IMO.

I was giving you benefit of doubt OS for some of your posts marginally had common sense littered in them. I can now see through the fog and its not a pretty sight.

Marginal is valid in officiating, IMO. We make judgment calls all the time, I didn't think that was a foul, it was marginal, could have been, one official might say yes, another might say no. Margin of error, margin of degree of contact, margin of degree of difficulty, you got no chance of making that shot, therefore, I'm not bailing you out with a foul.

Come on, marginally pregnant, you're out there! I can now see thru the fog too, and that's a dumbazz comparison to me. Go eat some more smoke, it might help with the fog in your life.

If he wants varsity calls, his players need to play a varsity game!

it's 20 points verses 2 point.....

That's not a very convincing argument.

Some kinda mercy rule?

Down by 20 and you get to verbally beat the sh1t out of the officials?

If ya give a warning - ya gotta follow it with a T when he is in noncompliance with the rules. If you don't you are in deeeeeeeeep doo the next time(s) you have him.

Hell no, and not when you're up by 20 either. I wacked a coach who had a 20 point lead with 36 seconds left this weekend.

My only ejection of a coach in my career came with his team up by 40 points.

Must have been something on TV he wanted to watch that night.

Back to the OP, I've said this before and I'll probably say it again. Coaches are like kids. They need one warning, that's it. Because if you give them more than one warning, they push it. What did you say, "Coach, I'm warning you. . .if you stand up I may have to warn you again!" Probably not. No matter what the violation, no matter what the situation, if I have to give a warning for it, then the consequence comes the very next time. Otherwise you have no credibility. If you give more than one warning, they expect warnings to keep coming, and then rightfully get angry with you when you finally give the consequence. If you warned him once, he has nobody to blame but himself when he does it again.

Hopefully you didn't get writer's cramp filling out all the game reports.:D

I like to think of coaches as big, stupid young dogs.

If you don't show them who's boss they'll think they are. And then you're in trouble.

I understand what you are saying, but the point spread should have absolutely no bearing on whether the coach gets the T or not. If he deserves it (and the coach in your post earlier did deserve it), he should have gotten it. Otherwise, IMHO, the officials in the next set of games have to take care of what wasn't taken care of earlier.

Sigh. :(

Here's our friend deecee again showing his youth and lack of backbone. Despite numerous, direct statements from the NFHS, he still thinks that he knows better than all those other people on how to handle the coaching box situations. If you wish to continue to do it your own way, do us all a favor, keep it to yourself, and please stop answering any questions to do with the coaching box. You simply don't do it the right way according to the NFHS.

2005-06 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
1. Sporting Behavior.

D. Coaching box: The committee wants coaches to stay in the coaching box. There is a constant problem when coaches wander. It is a distinct advantage to the coach who is permitted to be out of the box because the coach has a better chance to communicate with his/her team. The coach can also influence play by being out on the court.
The rule is black-and-white, but it has not been dealt with properly. Most officials have not enforced the rule. The fact that the coach is not directing comments to the officials or is "coaching the team" has no bearing on rule enforcement. The coach who continually abuses the coaching-box rule risks having his or her governing body remove it completely. The official who doesn't enforce it runs the risk of not following what the governing body wants enforced.
Once the coaching box has been removed because of a technical foul, all related rules restrictions must apply. There's no way to get the box back after the privilege has been lost.
Assistant coaches must be seated at all times except during time-outs, to attend to an injured player after being beckoned and to spontaneously react to a play. The rules that permit a head coach to rise in certain situations (time-outs, confer with table personnel for a correctable error, dealing with disqualifications) do not apply to assistant coaches under any circumstances. Again, the fact that an assistant coach is "only coaching" has no bearing on the rule or enforcement.
Head coaches have the responsibility to remain in the box. School administrators must support that by demanding their coaches do so. When violated, the official must enforce the rule with a technical foul.

thanks nevada for pointing out what the Assistant coach can and cannot do -- which has as much bearing to this question regarding the HC as mudflaps have at a basketball game -- but good catch though very nice.

I would say that the HC standing in these last 10 seconds are an indirect result of an outstanding play -- once the buzzer sounds he can sit back down if he wants -- but 10 seconds go by in a hurry. common sense here 10 seconds for a last shot -- from what was described i am not calling the T -- thats me you can go ahead and call it you are supported by the rules but thanks for pointing out again what the assistants can and cant do. very enlightning.

And yet you did tell the OP'er to cheat...that comment you made about not calling the foul in the last ten seconds and then adding the little wink icon - that's telling that official NOT to do his job and to cheat to prove a point to the coach who was standing...that's crap. It's crap advice, and it's a crap way to do your job...so there is no shame on me for pointing out that you are full of crap.

You can view it as crap all you want. I'm just being real. If the coach wants to argue that I missed a foul, late in the game that could have helped his team win the game. Then he needs to answer first, why is he standing up after recieving a technical and being warmed not too! Your shame is ignoring reality and ignoring the fact that people are people first.

A wise man once said; when you fail to heed a warning, then you shall suffer the consequences. Those consequences could be a technical late in the game, which the OP said he did, or those consequences could come from somewhere else. Like, all of a sudden, your kid got the ball, my eyes are waterly, can't see clear, did something just happen?, or, his player may go in to shoot and beep!, no shot!, TRAVELING....!!!!

Well, that reinforces what Rocky had to say. You get even by either ignoring a foul or calling a phantom violation.

Pure, unadulterated crap.

I've decided this guy is from some parallel universe where honor and integrity don't exist. Where referees all act like some evil judge and jury and issue capricious rulings.:(

I've said it before, and I know that not everybody agrees with me, but his account should be pulled immediately. He never posts anything of any value at all. All he does is force people to respond by correcting his obvious load of horse crap.

You and your wise men. Turns out your last wise man was Hellen Keller. I wonder who this one is?

Obviously, you missed those parts even though I put them in bold for you. :p

The assistant coach sentences are in a different color and do apply because the OP also involves assistant coaches.

Is this where the term "hot seat" comes from? :confused:

I figured by now you would have figured it out. But I'm going to give you a little help, especially since you love to give me so much advice. The wise man in my messages is me.....;)

Funny, that's the same thing JMO used to say on McGriffs board.

JR, phantom violations, where did you get that from? I don't have to make sh!t up. My point is this. There are consequences. As long as you live there will be consequences to your negative actions. Just like you berating me in front of all the others on this forum. There are consequences to that. Here's one of them. I'm going to tell it like it is, because we know we're not going to get the truth from you. The truth is, we pass on violations and calls all the time. Look at the NBA, depending on who you are (Dwayne Wade), traveling doesn't apply to you. If I'm working a HS game and it's a good game, I'm not going to nitpick the travels or the palming of the ball, unless it's just blatant and your grandmother could see it in the upper decks. However, if a coach refuses to heed my warnings, I might get a little bit more nitpicky with the calls.

Oh, and one more thing, it's not a phantom violation if I call it. It's not a made up violation if I call it. It's a violation and the ball going the other way, no matter what you or the coach thinks about it. And in case your pea ball size brain doesn't get it, I'm judge, jury and executioner on the court. I get the last word. And sure, you can say because of my actions I won't work in your association or whatever anymore. That's fine, but in this game today, I'm the king on the hill and I decide what going to be a violation or not.

A wise man once said; be not to vindictive of people you don't know, as there are consequences to everything you do.

Do you follow this advice? What about the warnings on posting things that are just wrong, from an officiating standpoint?

Here, let me:

:rolleyes:

OS reminds me of that fat kid in school that everybody wanted to ignore. But he was so annoying and over the top, you end up beating up all the time.

JMO, this is exactly why you are and will always be a rec league warrior.