Fifth foul procedure
 

I am a referee turned coach. Today in a game, one of my players recieved his fifth foul. I was notified and told I had thirty seconds. I waited for the first horn to put my sub in (it was late and I was trying to freeze the shooter). When the horn went off I was assessed a technical. I thought there was supposed to be a warning at 20 seconds, just like a 30 second time out. Can someone please help?

You are correct. The 30 seconds to replace a DQ'd or injured player should be just like a thirty second time out. Warning horn at 20 seconds and final horn at 30 seconds. Rule 2-12-5

Thank you. Is it a direct technical or indirect technical? I got a direct earlier in the game. I need to know if I need to call our association. I don't want to have to sit the next two games. I was NOT ejected.

It's a direct technical foul charged to the head coach. The timer should have sounded a warning with 10 seconds left; but it's still up to you to get the sub there in time.

[edited to correct a big mistake]:D

How do you explain the rule 2-12-5?

By correcting my original post. :D

But if there is no warning, and it wasn't put on the scoreboard, how was I supposed to know how much time I had?

Hey, we're not the ones that you have to sell on it.

I agree they should have warned you, and if I'd been there (and actually known the rule), I'd have told them to sound it after 20. Had they not, I'd have given you a few seconds to get the sub to the table if the first horn was at 30.
That said, trying to use this as a timeout to freeze the shooter comes with risk. What level ball was this?

Common sense should tell you that. Even if horns don't sound properly it doesn't seem like an excuse to get out of this one.

It was at the freshmen level. I know guys it was freshmen. I still have to do all I can do in order to win the game.

I had the sub, standing there waiting for the first horn. If I have to follow the rules by getting the sub in in time, doesn't the official by following correct procedure?

Like I said; your tactic comes with risk. Use your watch next time. Personally, I would have done it differently; but the refs were right by rule to issue you the T at the 30 second horn.
Not having the warning horn at 20 seconds is not a correctable error.

I was just curious, and did not mean in any way to diminish the value of the game. However, you know full well that at this level the officials may not be fully versed in the little details of the rules. Using this time instead of a timeout to ice the shooter comes with risk; especially at this level.

You are right, but I don't think I should have to sit since there was an error. I'm not worried about the game, I worried about having to sit. If I was not ejected, will I have to sit?

That's up to your state association. Do officials have to report all Ts, or just ejections? If they have to report all technicals, then maybe. If they only have to report ejections, then probably not. Again, it's up to your state.
You might want to call them and offer the situation as a "hypothetical." You know, "a friend of mine was wondering...." ;)

What, in the next game you mean? That's not an NFHS rule, that may be an association rule. Appeal the case to your association and explain the circumstances. Maybe they'll let you off the hook.

I sent an email to the director of officials, explaining the incident. (my luck the referee probably wont even right it up) Bottom line, If i dont get a T in the first part of the game, it's not even an issue. We were down 3 with 8 seconds to go, definitely a chance to come back. It should be obvious that I wasn't trying to "show the official up", or anything like that. I hope that our association takes it into consideration.

No offense, but why the heck do you care? It's a freakin' freshman game. You worried about losing the paycheck? If you got the required number of T's take your medicine like a big boy. It's a freakin' freshman game. Instead of worrying about the one you didn't deserve, worry about the one you did deserve. Fix that, and you don't have to worry about sitting out because some freshman level ref didn't know the rules.

The first horn, whether at 20 seconds or 30 seconds is MY warning horn. I'd wait another 10 seconds and then make sure a sub was ready to go.

How hard is it for the official to turn and say "give me someone?"

Can't imagine whacking a coach over this.

OKref, you said yourself you weren't ejected, so I would think that you wouldn't have to sit the next two out.

If there is a local rule in place, I'm sure it says "ejection" or "2 direct Technicals" has a penalty of missing 2 games. You weren't ejected and apparently you didn't receive a 2nd direct technical.

And yes, the officials screwed this up. You as a coach should not have to use a stopwatch to get a sub in. The rulebook says warning horn at 20 seconds.

Some officials in the forum thinks it's alright for other officials to kick a rule because it's just a freshman game, I'm not part of that school of thinking. To me that's the same as a coach saying "I shouldn't be confined to the coach's box b/c it's only a freshman game.

Issuing a T here is nothing but BS. Table crew/on-court officials messed up. Mechanics are in place for a reason. In this case, the expectation is that we don't require the coach to be aware of when 20s and 30s are up.

JMHO.

You had to sit after the first one.
Oh, so that's why coaches like to stand all the time, they don't sitting on their brains. :D ;)

When I used to coach, I always used my full 30 seconds too. I would get my player ready and talk to him while walking him to the table. I kinda had it down timing wise perfectly. As far as the T goes - it seems a bit hasty. It sounds like younger officials who put the ball down on an oob even though the team is walking across the floor.

AS far as you sitting - you weren't ejected. Usually that is due to an ejection . . . again, since it was a freshman game it's possible the second T won't even be reported. I know of some officials that don't report T's like that . . . :rolleyes:

For the record, that's not what I was getting at; and I don't think many officials would say it's "okay" to kick a rule at any level. Actually, I can only think of one, and even (s)he requires you at least be consistently wrong.

It's not okay to kick this, but it's to be expected in lower level ball; just like you'd expect them to kick a few back court calls and you might expect them to shoot free throws on a team control foul. It should be a learning experience for the officials involved.

What I'm saying is, the coach was using a legitimate, but risky, tactic. It's risky because he's depending on the entire officiating crew to get the details of this rule correct. In freshman ball, where you're likely to get a few rookie officials who only know about the 30 second limit, the risk is higher.

Now, it sounds like they didn't know it was supposed to be a direct on the coach; or they weren't completely sure enough about the call to eject the coach for it.

It is my job to try and win whatever I have to do (within the rules). I am trying to advance, just like I did when I was officiating. If you as a coach expect your players to give you everything they have, you have to do the same. When I got the first technical, I did not "lose it" or blow up, I asked a question (yes I was being a smart A$$), and I didn't like the answer (which included that is enough), so I said something else and got the "T". When I got the first T, I sat down, and did not get up again. (Except for T.O.'s) IThe other part of this story is I had these referees three straight days. All three games were very close, and hotly contested. I personally think that having them three days in a row probably led both parties to having their fill of each other. As for why do I care, because I care about my players

I do not know if anyone cares but I was not suspended from any games. Also, you may find this interesting. When this happened was in a tournament, we were not playing the host team, but the host coach was there to help "run the gym" whatever that means. When I got the second "T", I turned to him and said, "I get a horn at 20." This guy looked me right in the eye and said that wasn't right. Three days later we go back over there for Varsity, and he tells me that he was right, and I should have been ejected. I cited the rule you guys gave me on here, and after a brief arguement (light hearted), he said I'll prove it's not in there. He gets the book out, I tell him the rule number. It's there plain as day. He apologizes, says he'll write a letter on my behalf if needed. Said all that to say, Thank you to you guys that helped me out.

You need to remember the context of putting the ball down. If I have a team that has been holding up the game because of these drawn out time outs, I'm going to give the first horn warning and another after the second. If they still don't break, putting the ball down and starting the count will suggest the urgency of breaking the huddle on time.
There are too many of these lower level coaches that think they get 1:30 on a full time out.

This is also something I address in my pregame talk to the coaches. Team properly equipped, identify coaching box, tell me full or 30, break on the first horn.

When I coached (back in the day) I will never forget the first time it happened to me - and it never happened again.

Thanks for following up on the outcome. I'm glad that something you learned here helped you. If you have other questions or situations and desire some answers we will be here for you.

As for the original situation, I would add that you should remember that the warning horn at 20 seconds was a fairly recent addition to the NFHS rules as it first appeared in the 2003-04 season.
Furthermore, coaches used to be expected to know how long 30 seconds is as they definitely used to get Ts for not meeting the 30 seconds prior to this rule change. Heck, every coach certainly seems to know how long three seconds is; all he has to do is count that off ten times! :D

I'm not being condescending (talking down to you). I'm simply stating the fact that we're discussing a freshman game. If the issue was missing the first round of your varsity post-season tournament, then I'm with you. But this is a simple rule screw-up by a freshman ref who obviously doesn't know any better. Who cares? The more important issue is the behavior that generated the (admittedly) deserved T. Instead of worrying that he didn't get a horn at 20 seconds, he should be concerned about addressing the behavior. Yes, the ref screwed up. But that's not the primary issue, as far as I'm concerned.

But you didn't do that. You were a wise-@@@ and got whacked. Eliminate that, and there's no second T.

I absolutely understand that. I'd be surprised if you weren't. :)

Agreed, but irrelevant to the situation of being tossed.

Your players would've been fine for one game. You probably care more about the game than they do. Again, not being condescending, but this is a freshman game. They would learn just as much from seeing how you serve a one-game suspension that you didn't deserve as they would from hearing you coach for 32 minutes.

Having said all that, I think it's appropriate that you were not punished for a mis-application of the rule. If the powers-that-be said that their hands were tied and you had to serve it, I would have no problem with that, either. But again, I think the larger issue is not the second T, but the first one.

Ok, maybe I missed someone else saying this but .......... you are a referee turned coach right?

So, you should already know the procedures, consequences etc.

Ok, so you didn't get a horn at 20 seconds. That does not mean you don't have to have a replacement in by 30 seconds and you already knew that. You obviously also weren't coaching too much you were "freezing" the shooter and had your replacement standing there waiting to send in. Sounds like you kind of "screwed the pooch" on this one playing games.

Do you think that "freezing" the shooter for 30 seconds is any more effective than "freezing" them for 20 seconds especially at a freshman level?

Come on - GET OVER IT! Ya blew it earlier in the game when you already earned one T. As on ex-official you should know where the lines are. Even if the TIMER didn't follow procedure - the official did when he gave you the second T for not having the sub in. Their only screw up as I see it - is you were not ejected and for that - at least in my state - you can be thankful! :(

Here's why I don't get. The OP has a player standing right next to him. Obviously this is the kid going in. When the horn sounds, why doesn't the referee just bring the kid in? That's what I'm going to do. "Ok 15 let's get in here."

I think it's clear that he has designated the sub so get the sub in. The T should be reserved for the coach who just stands there and stares at you for 30 seconds.

Seriously, depends on where they are standing. The kid standing by the coach in the team bench area when the horn sounds WHACK!!. The kid and coach standing at X in front of table horns sounds "let's go 15 coach (former official) I did not get my 20 sec horn don't worry about WHACK!! no difference. Like it was stated before clean up the behavior.

I don't fell like I really need to clean up my behavior. I am very respectful to the kids and the officials. When I got the first technical I was trying to kill some momentum for them, and build some for us. I wasn't irate when I got it, I just basically asked for it. I had plenty of coaches do the same when I was officiating. I never took it as they were out of control or anything like that. The thing is is that after I got the T the opposing team missed both free throws, we forced a turnover and went to the line. It was a huge momentum swing. I remember coaches that made fools of themselves and I'm not going to be like that. However, if I think getting a technical in a certain situation will help us win, I am going to do so.

Read case book play 10.5.3SitB(c) and you'll get it.

The "T" is reserved for a head coach that doesn't have a sub <b>at</b> the table when the 30-second horn goes.

Sigh......

Unfortunately, that statement tells me all that I need to know right there. :rolleyes: Sad, but certainly not uncommon.

I don't understand why it's "sad." This is a common tactic, from what I've observed. A lot of times a technical foul will get your players all riled up and ready to go back in there and scrap harder. I imagine it's tough as an official to try and judge whether that's the coach's intent or not and how that factors into your decision to call the T.

It's sad because:

1) The coach is placing winning above sportsmanship. He or she is intentionally acting in an unsportsmanlike manner in order to gain a perceived competitive advantage. At the high school level, and particularly at the freshman level, that's sad.

2) The coach is not coaching. For whatever reason, the coach decides that he is unable to motivate/teach/instruct his team adequately. He has stopped being a coach and decides to become "the show", in the hopes that that will motivate his team.

Well put. I hadn't thought of it that way.

I have to say, I'm learning a lot, and it's actually a bit discouraging. Lots of little nuances like this that don't come naturally yet. Thanks for your post, though.

Oklahoma Ref, go to know.

Don't agree here. We always say a Technical is just another foul call. We punish the behavior and move on. No big deal. Nothing to make me think lesser of the coach. I think it's not an uncommon practice among coaches. We're not supposed to take it personally.

We don't like coaches judging us but we feel it's alright to judge them. :confused:

Yes, technical fouls are just another call. That doesn't mean that we <b>approve</b> of unsporting acts. Do I think lesser of a coach that will deliberately commit an unsporting act to try and get an advantage? Yup, I sureashell do. That doesn't affect the way that I call a game though. And I don't carry it over to the next game either. It certainly does mean though that I am not going to <b>ignore</b> those unsporting acts. Ever.

Every time that we issue an unsporting technical foul to a coach, we are judging that coach's behavior. That's part of our job. It is <b>not</b> part of a coach's job to judge the referees.

Most coaches that have some kind of brain will go ahead and sub, usually before the time expires. If he refuses, handle your business by the book to cover your azz!!!!!!

Yes we are judge, jury, and sometimes executioner on the court. But there are plenty of coaches who have used the practice of getting a technical for strategic or tactical reasons. My judgement of the act ends when I form the the T sign with my hands. Why he got the T is not important, whether it was an intentional ploy or an impulsive, childish reaction. Makes no nevermind to me after the fact.

And to me, IMHO, that is deliberately being unsporting in order to gain a perceived advantage. To me, IMHO, that coach has just placed more importance on winning than on sportsmanship. At the freshman HS level, IMHO, I think that's sad.

It also makes no nevermind to me either in the way that I will call the game. I don't have to respect a coach to treat them equally and fairly. However, I don't respect coaches that use the so-called tactic of getting strategic "T"s. It's the complete antithesis of sportsmanship imo. They don't give a damn that they might be doing that in a Frosh game and their players will follow their lead, or that to get that "strategic technical" that they want they're crapping all over an official who might still be trying to learn his avocation.

That was my point.

What advantage? No different than committing a strategic or intentional foul. Whistle is blown, penalty is enforced.

You really think a coach cares what we think about their chosen coaching tactics?

Nope.

Why do you care what we think if our thinking doesn't affect the game?:confused:

The advantage is to get their kids riled up, to build the emotions of the team. That's exactly why the original poster got his first T -- because he thought it would fire up his team. And the difference between that and a strategic foul to stop the clock at the end of the game is the intentional unsporting behavior. In a freshman High School game.

Who has ever said anything about whether the coach cares what we think? Of course he doesn't care. He doesn't care about sportsmanship. So why would he care what we think about sportsmanship. That's completely beside the point. Irrelevant.

Scrapper1, who cares if the coach is unsporting in any game? That's for the parent of his/her players to worry about, or for the school management to deal with. As an official I just penalize and move on.

Since it's not acceptable in a Freshman game, what level is the appropriate level to get a T rile up his team? JV, V, JuCo, NAIA, NCAA lower division, NCAA D1? You keep saying its only a freshman game. At what level do you no longer say it's only?

I do. That's what I've been trying to say for 2 days. That's the reason for the "IMHO" (in MY humble opinion).

And I guess you do, too, then. :) If you didn't care, you would ignore it.

I think that's the first legitimate point you've made in this conversation, to be honest. I think at the HS level, it's clearly not appropriate. High school basketball is supposed to an extension of the classroom. It's more important to teach them the life-lessons about winning and losing than to compile a winning record.

I think in college, that philosophy doesn't hold nearly as much. People's jobs depend on their win-loss records. And not $2,000 a year on top of your teacher's salary. We're talking full-time jobs. So I think it's understandable, if still somewhat regrettable, for coaches to place winning (and keeping their jobs) above sportsmanship at times.

If you think that my job at the high school level doesn't depend on winning you are very very sorely mistaken. In a perfect world my job would not depend on winning but it does. High school basketball is very important to a lot of people, and believe it or not our jobs do depend on what happens on the court. I have never been called in the office over my classroom. I have been called in over basketball.

The thing about the strategic technical is I did not act unsporting. I did not blow up and scream and yell. I said very quietly the official was doing a terrible job. Once I received the T i sat down the rest of the game. I do not place sportsmanship above winning.

Wrong argument to try to make here...you most certainly did act unsporting if that is what you said. You don't have to yell and scream to be unsporting...a quiet butt-head is still a butt-head...had you tried to "defend" yourself by telling us that you were trying to protect your players, I might have bought it, but this argument is garbage...

You <b>deliberately</b> denigrated an official in a freaking freshman game but that isn't unsporting. And as long as you crap all over the official <b>quietly</b>, that somehow makes it OK.

Oklahoma, you wouldn't recognize <b>sportsmanship</b> if it walked up behind you and kicked you in the azz. You're just.......plain sad. :rolleyes:

My opinion: It's wrong, but it's "allowed" (with the appropriate penalty).

If I'm acting in the role of parent, and the coach gets "too many" of these, then I complain. If I'm acting on the role of official, I penalize as listed in the rule, and keep my opinion of the coach to myself.

Is it really necessary to call me plain said? We disagree, but do we really have to resort to that? I think your wrong, but I don't think your more or less of an official because of it. Your sportsmanship comment was way out of line too, my view on one point means I would know sportsmanship? C'mon disagree but dont attack my person.

Coach, I have zero respect for people like you who completely ignore sportsmanship and then try to rationalize their doing so as being a legitimate coaching strategy. Do what you have to do when you're coaching. Just don't mention "sportsmanship" while you're doing so. What you're doing is as far from "sportsmanship" as you can get.

Btw, I also have no respect for your opinion of me, or any other official either. Iow, I could give a flying flip less what you think of officials. You've already shown what you think of us with your philosophy that it's OK to crap on an official if it's part of your coaching strategy. You just don't get it and you never will.

I do wish that you would take the "ref" out of your screen name though. It's inappropriate and misleading imo.

SAD!!!

My sentiments exactly Bob.

It doesn't sound to me like you have much respect for anybody that doesn't see your point of view. I have been on both sides, officiating and coaching. I enjoy both. I don't think bad of officials, there are good ones and bad ones, just like coaches. You are not a coach, so you don't think like a coach. Your opinion comes directly from an officiating stand point. I can RESPECT that even if I think it is wrong.

Mountain...
 

out of a mole hill. Sheese. So you don't agree with each other, big deal? Move on.:confused: