Basket-brawl
 

Looked like an average hockey game.

What's caught my attention is the position of the officials. Look at where the Center is located. It is my belief if the Center was in proper position he would have seen all of the extra action which occurred in the lane. This is just my observation.

Good observation, if it's in his right spot, he's running in whistle blowing with a double foul and he's right there to clean it up before it gets started. When I see poor officiating like this, it gives me hope that one day I will get a chance.

Does anybody know how the situation was finally handled by the crew? It looked like as many as 3 Lobos came off the bench seeing as how I counted 8 white jerseys.

Regardless, this reminds me of a situation regarding HS ball, where we don't have the advantage of video replay to determine who threw punches or came off the bench. How do you guys handle this type of situation in 2 or 3-man mechanics. Obviously there is a strong desire to squash the fight, but how do you guys do so and still record #'s and observe the bench players? I've never really encountered a multi-player fight, so I guess it may just come down to instincts and adrenaline, but sometimes even the 1 on 1 fights can get pretty intense in terms of handling the situation.

I've had three flagrant situations. One was a single player as his opponent did not fight back. Calling the foul immediately helped in that regard, my partner was right on top of it.
The second was only two players, all by themselves. No one came crashing in, and no one left the bench.
The other was a little more complicated. My partner was on it calling an intentional (that's how it started until B1 finished of his bear hug with a take down on A1). The players started scuffling and I started hitting my whistle. I stayed back to watch numbers (I was lead table side, ball was backcourt during a press). A2 jumps into the fray. My partner was in the middle of it all, so I think it helped to have a cooler head outside it all observing and taking mental notes.

Good point, OS. Even really poor officials can hope! To hang any of this mess on the officials and judge them as poor is ludicrous. You didn't see the rest of the game to that point. You would not be man eough to jump in there and grab those hooligans like the refs did.

Old news.


http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=31424

In 2- or 3-person games, at least ONE official should ALWAYS stay out and look for numbers and players. In my pregames we always cover this, no matter what. Goes something like . . .

OK guys, if we have a situation where there is a fight or flagrant act, the closest official(s) can go in and try to break up the fight. The official that is farthest from the fight, and has the best general perspective to what is happening across the entire area of the floor, holds tight to get numbers of anyone who participates in the fight or leaves the bench. Make good mental notes so we get the offending players off the floor.

I know it is not the same situation, but I use the same philosophy for handling jump balls too. Closest official goes in to get the jump ball called. The official farthest from the action holds tight to make sure that no "funny business" is happening between any of the players at or around the same time.

Never, ever jump into the middle of a fight. What happens if any of these occur?

• You grab a player from behind and he gets punched in the mouth?
• You grab a player from behind to pull him off, you both fall over and he blows his knee out?
• You grab a player from behind and he turns around and punches you in the face?
• You step between two players and all three of you fall in aheap and one kid hits his head on the floor?
• (Girls) You step into a fight and while trying to break it up inadvertantly touch a girl in the wrong place?

Nothing good is going to come from you stepping into the middle of it. Step back and take numbers of who leaves the bench. Better yet, be attentive and in position and "Nip it, Nip it in the Bud. Unlike the C in the video. Good catch there true rookie.

I hate to say it, but I tend to agree with Ignats75, although in the heat of things, I know I'd probably react differently. You better have good insurance and a good lawyer if you are going to jump in and grab/hold/pull a player. That's enough for a lot of lawyers to go after you. Of course, they'd probably sue you for standing by, too.

I agree with everything you posted Ignats . . . but I did say CAN, not should or will, as I would never tell another official what actions to take in a clearly unsafe situation. I think that decision needs to be left up to the officials on the floor at the time to use their best judgement in what actions they might take. I think the video shows a situation of "too far gone," and at that point I (personally) step out and take numbers. The official in the middle got kicked, kneed, and stepped on while trying to protect one of the players. Not my bag of tea . . . Did you see him bent over after the fact? He was hurt, or hurting . . .

As for the official ("C") not being in position . . . I have heard it time and time again, "It is better to have two C's, than to have two T's!" He was definitely WAY out of position, and yes, he should have been on top of it with a double foul.

You're right, but it's not being a man jumping in there like that, it's being stupid. And that proves my point. I have a very good chance of making it when I see poor performances like this. Now if you want to jump in there and do that because you was late on the call an out of position. You go right ahead. I'm gonna sit back and enjoy the show, watching you get plummeted!!

This also proves my point about officiating. This referee reminded me of JR who's out there thinking of a case play and what rule describes this situation instead of being in his proper position to officiate the play. That's how come he's out of position. Good officiating is also about being in the right place at the right time. This know-how can not be learned from a book. It's like playing, you either got it or you don't. Basing an officials ability on how well he can quote a rulebook is also ludicrous, but you guys do me this way. How far am I back now? I believe it's the YWCA.

The C official here, should have been at the FT line extended and should have come in with a double foul, jump ball or possession arrow because the foul occur on the rebound, no team control, base line out. You see, didn't need a rulebook for that, don't need to refer to a case play either. Now go find that in the rulebook and come back and tell me how wrong I am again. I'll be waiting....and my name is old school, try not to get me confused with this jmo character.

Never heard that usage for 'plummeted' before. Then again, I have never heard applications for rules that you espouse before, either.

Let me help you out here a little bit, JMO. NCAA officials use a mechanics book. That tells them how to be in the right place at the right time. NFHS officials have their own mechanics book. That also tells them how to be in the right place at the right time. Rec league officials don't know that these previously mentioned mechanics books even exist, let alone the fact that there are actually such things like real live rule books also(:eek:). That's why they remain rec league officials forever and all time.

An NCAA official may occasionally be out of position. That may cost him sometimes too, as in a situation like this. That doesn't make him a <b>poor</b> official though. If he was a poor official, he would have been long-gone by now. Poor officials don't last at that level.

You aren't qualified to comment on <b>any</b> official, let alone a D1 official.

A lot folks are going to have to die or retire first.

Nope. That won't work because he'll get "Schooled" by up and coming newbies.

I beg to differ. At the right time? This cannot be determined in a book. Maybe in your world but in the real world, you have to work off instincts. I'm sorry JR, you can not learn instincts from a book. I'm going to introduce a new concept to you. If you can find the defintion, please share. There's this thing call IT! You either have IT or you don't. You can't get IT from reading a book. Of course, bookworms like you know nothing about this.

Wrong again, one of the rec leagues I work uses NCAA Men's mechanics, another uses NBA. Most officials, at some point in time in their career has done some time working rec leagues. It is not the worse ball you can work. In fact, I have had some very very good and competitive rec men's games.

You would be surprised. I'm okay with you thinking this. It takes the pressure off, I don't have to be right all the time. Life is a lot more enjoyable when you don't have to be right all the time. You also live a lot longer.....Peace

I'd settle for once in a while.

Then you must be having the absolute time of your life, OS!

As a matter of fact I am!!!!

For some reason, the song "Lucy In the Sky With Diamonds" just popped into my head.

I know you are.

Look up the phrase "internet troll" sometime. Meanwhile, enjoy.

I think if the lead of center would have seen the first action, there may have just been one foul for the pull down, and that may have been the end of it. It is easy to second guess if the fight could have been prevented.

For what it is worth, I dont think any official was out of position.

Lead has strongside rebounds. Center has weakside, Trail has perimeter.

You can see C watching the two on the floor and closing...

OS, bad mouthing officials that have worked at least 2 final fours with one national championship game in the last 10 years isn't a great way to "move up" LOL....the guy who jumped in the middle of it, the one you said was out of position, has worked 2 final fours with one championship game that I know of since 2000....

He'd never make it in the rec leagues though.......:D

"You aren't qualified to comment on any official, let alone a D1 official."

Aren't you being hypocritical?

I'm happy for him.

too funny -- too funny

hes not being hypocritical -- OS has proven to us on many occasions that hes is NOT qualified to comment on rules, procedures, officials, basketball, life, mechanics, interpretations, and anything else related to this forum and basketball.

Hey - where did you find this picture of M&M Guy????

I noticed he's lacking in a way that our squirrely friend is over-endowed.

I hope they like those jokes on the moon, Alice. 'Cause that's where you're goin'...bang...zoom!

Sheesh, what'd I ever do to you?

Oh. Never mind.

I agree with both JR and TrueRookier. "C" looks like he's a little out of position and shouldn't had looked at the shooter. But he's not completely wrong as he's travelling with ball speed and he knew a quick shot (perhaps a three) must go off (look at the score and time remaining). In a way, I believe he wanted to pick up the shooter cause the ball is in the dual area. He could of perhaps trusted that the "T" that he would pick up that matchup and look for a different competitive matchup (in this case the two rebounders). I also have a sneaky feeling that he's expecting the "L" to force a rotation (perhaps thats why he moved so slowly and didn't look at the two rebounders). If you look at the other players, the offense players were actually outside of the three point area and there are no match ups but the two rebounders to pick up. Whatever it is, he didn't see the Wyoming player pushing the New Mexico player and it was his call to make. We can for sure say that because after the shove, he was leaning toward the players and had no clue what went on. Of course with video tape and instant reply, we can tell what could of done differently. But to say he's a poor official is just arrogant and stupid. He is no poorer than any of us here, if he were, I bet you wouldn't even be able to see him on TV.

In what way?

Not true, you guys are the ones trying very hard I might add to convince everyone else that frequents this forum that I am not qualified. Tell you what, you might be able to convince everyone else here, but you will never deter me. I am happy, and I'm sticking to my call, you, on the other hand, are the ones that are bent that I am here. It is you that needs to get over yourself. But while you're at it, how about you try not to throw another official under the bus. You know what they say, once you do it, once a criminal, always a criminal.

Hey, just sayin.

He's got big nose, big teeth, big feet, and no...errr...no nads.

It aint my fault.

And therein lies a big part of why you get such grief here. You stick to your call even when it has been proven over and over and over that you are wrong.

Look behind his right hand...err...claw...um, whatever.

You were too busy admiring his full head of hair, right?

Oh yeah, forgot to mention the big hair.

Looks like a refuge from a 70's rock band