Liability Issue @ Ortonville

[Johnny Ringo]

Originally Posted by GreeneFam

No I know this for a fact, one official was a substitute teacher, the other was student, still dressed in her JV volleyball practice uniform. The teacher MAY have been registered, but I find that a stretch. And after emailing the principal he acknowledge that there were no registered officials present.

Are you serious? This has to be a made-up story. A female student who was a JV volleyball player? I know the mindset of girls JV volleyballers or girls at the JV level in any sport. I have a dughter in high school and sisters who were much younger than me and to think that they may come out of wherever to officiate a boys frosh game is hilarious ... not to mention, very unlikely. How bad was this game to watch. even if it was a JV boys basketball player - seriously doubt this happened.

No mention of how they officiated the game. Not going to say anyhting about the sub teacher, but the JV Volleyball player may have used the travel signal for subs and can't imaine what the whistle analysis sheet may have looked liked? This is a hoax! A guy just decided to think out loud on this site.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Are you serious? This has to be a made-up story. A female student who was a JV volleyball player? I know the mindset of girls JV volleyballers or girls at the JV level in any sport. I have a dughter in high school and sisters who were much younger than me and to think that they may come out of wherever to officiate a boys frosh game is hilarious ... not to mention, very unlikely. How bad was this game to watch. even if it was a JV boys basketball player - seriously doubt this happened.

No mention of how they officiated the game. Not going to say anyhting about the sub teacher, but the JV Volleyball player may have used the travel signal for subs and can't imaine what the whistle analysis sheet may have looked liked? This is a hoax! A guy just decided to think out loud on this site.

I'm not entirely sure, Johnny. A junior could be a JV player, and there are probably quite a few juniors (boys or girls) in hs who've done enough reffing that they could manage, if not handle well, a boys' frosh game. You may know a lot of JV girl athletes but you sure don't know them all. I'll be there are at least a few out there who'd be willing to do this.

Someone asked how the refs did. I'm also interested to note that the OP has at no point criticized the flow of the game, or any calls or mechanics. Maybe she did a decent job.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Are you serious? This has to be a made-up story. A female student who was a JV volleyball player? I know the mindset of girls JV volleyballers or girls at the JV level in any sport. I have a dughter in high school and sisters who were much younger than me and to think that they may come out of wherever to officiate a boys frosh game is hilarious ... not to mention, very unlikely. How bad was this game to watch. even if it was a JV boys basketball player - seriously doubt this happened.

No mention of how they officiated the game. Not going to say anyhting about the sub teacher, but the JV Volleyball player may have used the travel signal for subs and can't imaine what the whistle analysis sheet may have looked liked? This is a hoax! A guy just decided to think out loud on this site.

We've got kids of that age in our training program, including several young ladies of approximately that age also. We use them in AAU/rec type games to get experience. They're usually keen as hell and are like sponges when it comes to learning. I'd sureashell rather see them out on the court in a situation like this than some parent plucked from the stands just to make sure the game gets played.

Jmo, but I really don't think that it's fair to speculate on how good/bad the kid might have been without actually seeing the game either. That's fanboy thinking, not official's thinking. The kid might have done a good job.

[TimTaylor]

This isn't the place to come for answers - you need to be asking these questions of someone at your State governing association for high school sports to find out what their policies and procedures are. Before you do though, get facts - assumptions and opinions are worthless.

[GreeneFam]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

This isn't the place to come for answers - you need to be asking these questions of someone at your State governing association for high school sports to find out what their policies and procedures are. Before you do though, get facts - assumptions and opinions are worthless.

This is not a place to come for answers? I would think an officiating message board would be the foremost place to come for answers regarding an officiating question.
I did check out the Michigan High School Athletic Association's website regarding insurance liability and according to them, unregistered officials would not be covered by them.

I am not looking to take any legal action, I was merely wondering for my own curiosity.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by GreeneFam

This is not a place to come for answers? I would think an officiating message board would be the foremost place to come for answers regarding an officiating question.
I did check out the Michigan High School Athletic Association's website regarding insurance liability and according to them, unregistered officials would not be covered by them.

I am not looking to take any legal action, I was merely wondering for my own curiosity.

This is not an officiating question. We deal with the rules of the game, not with what your state or school's insurance provider requires.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by GreeneFam

This is not a place to come for answers? I would think an officiating message board would be the foremost place to come for answers regarding an officiating question.
I did check out the Michigan High School Athletic Association's website regarding insurance liability and according to them, unregistered officials would not be covered by them.

I am not looking to take any legal action, I was merely wondering for my own curiosity.

If you're looking for help on how a particular rule is interpreted or enforced, or officiating philosophy in general, this is a great place to come. But the questions you posed have nothing to do with officiating - they're about policies and procedures of a state sports governing body & while you will undoubtedly get some opinions here, if you're looking for accurate answers, the governing body for your state the place to go. These policies differ greatly from state to state, and are made by folks far higher up the food chain than us lowly officials.......

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GreeneFam

This is not a place to come for answers? I would think an officiating message board would be the foremost place to come for answers regarding an officiating question.
I did check out the Michigan High School Athletic Association's website regarding insurance liability and according to them, unregistered officials would not be covered by them.

I am not looking to take any legal action, I was merely wondering for my own curiosity.

And you would be wrong. Officials are not administrators. All State Associations such as the MHSAA and the IHSA where I live, are groups compiled of schools and the agreement they have with each other. Officials have to basically request to be a member or licensed as an official to work those games. In my state there is even an Official's Advisory Board and all that group can do is make requests. If the Board of Directors (School Superintends, Principals and other school Administrators are on this board, no officials) are in charge of approving officials issues all the way. In no way can the Official's Advisory Committee ever override the issues of the larger board. All we can do is give information and hope they consider them. And most people here are not in those positions to know what your state does or does not do as it relates to those kinds of rules and liabilities.

Peace

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by GreeneFam

My son was on the visiting team from Rochester, and a few of us were appalled by this.

Would you have been less appalled if the game was just cancelled after travelling across town? I'd give the home team administration some credit for letting it take place at all. Understand that it was a sub-varsity contest...that means, most likely, the only real effect of not playing would be on the JV players.

I'm not a lawyer, but I expect the "refs" they used were probably covered legally & insurance wise as they were performing duties related to athletic activity...whether as a student or faculty member. Just a guess, though.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by GreeneFam

I am interested in hearing some opinions from registered officials on this matter.

On Tuesday, January 23rd my stepson participated in a Freshman Boys Basketball game at Brandon High School. Due to poor planning or scheduling, or perhaps just mixed signals, no registered officials were present at this game. Instead, a woman faculty member of Brandon High School, and also what I can only assume was an underaged female student, were asked to "referee" this contest. I'm not quite sure the reasoning behind this decision. Perhaps Brandon didn't want to forfeit the game, or perhaps the parties responsible simply didn't realize the error they were making in this decision.

Am I wrong in assuming that the athletic director of Brandon High School made a huge mistake by allowing these two unregistered females to officiate? Two random unregistered females are not insured in a situation like this. Especially an underaged student. Had an accident happened during that game, both the female "referees" would have been in enormous legal trouble, not to mention the school.

Did Brandon High School violate any laws or rules by allowing this to happen? My son was on the visiting team from Rochester, and a few of us were appalled by this.

They probably didn't violate any laws or rules but I'd bet a game check that they violated the terms of the school's catatrosphic insurance policy. Most of the policies requires officials who are registered with a state association or sanctioning body.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by GreeneFam

I am interested in hearing some opinions from registered officials on this matter.

On Tuesday, January 23rd my stepson participated in a Freshman Boys Basketball game at Brandon High School. Due to poor planning or scheduling, or perhaps just mixed signals, no registered officials were present at this game. Instead, a woman faculty member of Brandon High School, and also what I can only assume was an underaged female student, were asked to "referee" this contest. I'm not quite sure the reasoning behind this decision. Perhaps Brandon didn't want to forfeit the game, or perhaps the parties responsible simply didn't realize the error they were making in this decision.

Am I wrong in assuming that the athletic director of Brandon High School made a huge mistake by allowing these two unregistered females to officiate? Two random unregistered females are not insured in a situation like this. Especially an underaged student. Had an accident happened during that game, both the female "referees" would have been in enormous legal trouble, not to mention the school.

Did Brandon High School violate any laws or rules by allowing this to happen? My son was on the visiting team from Rochester, and a few of us were appalled by this.

Just curious...if they had been male, would your post have included this many references to their gender? Doubtful.

Your problem seems to go beyond "unregistered", which for all we know, is an assumption on your part.

[mick]

Originally Posted by GreeneFam

I am interested in hearing some opinions from registered officials on this matter.

On Tuesday, January 23rd my stepson participated in a Freshman Boys Basketball game at Brandon High School. Due to poor planning or scheduling, or perhaps just mixed signals, no registered officials were present at this game. Instead, a woman faculty member of Brandon High School, and also what I can only assume was an underaged female student, were asked to "referee" this contest. I'm not quite sure the reasoning behind this decision. Perhaps Brandon didn't want to forfeit the game, or perhaps the parties responsible simply didn't realize the error they were making in this decision.

Am I wrong in assuming that the athletic director of Brandon High School made a huge mistake by allowing these two unregistered females to officiate? Two random unregistered females are not insured in a situation like this. Especially an underaged student. Had an accident happened during that game, both the female "referees" would have been in enormous legal trouble, not to mention the school.

Did Brandon High School violate any laws or rules by allowing this to happen? My son was on the visiting team from Rochester, and a few of us were appalled by this.

GreeneFam,
I was raised in Fenton and Ortonville, Brandon, Rochester all seem like Michigan communities.

In Michigan, using unregistered officials does, as you say, open the liability issue to all participating parties (i.e., administration, athletic department, officials).

In addition a school stands to be subject to censure, probation with or without competition, loss of revenue sharing and/or expulsion from the MHSAA.

Further, it is the reponsibility of both schools to use only registered officials.

If the MHSAA does not know, then it never happened.
mick

Originally Posted by Jurassic Ref

I doubt very much that anyone here could give you any kind of definitive answer. It's really outside our area of expertise.

Watchutalkin' 'bout?

[GreeneFam]

thank You Mick!!!!!

[mick]

Originally Posted by GreeneFam

thank You Mick!!!!!

No praw.
Yeah, the folks on this forum are pretty dang great at answering any questions on the rules of basketball, though your question had more to do with administration.

If you want to check a link with this in writing try this:
http://www.mhsaa.com/resources/offguide.pdf (see page 7)

Welcome to the Forum, even if you are a Troll [live below the Bridge].
If you are interested enough to hang around and want to know about rules from unbiased parties, there be some plenty smart folks here.
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

One party that hasn't been heard from so far is the coach of the visiting team from Rochester. If he/she didn't object or have a problem with the officials, why the big to-do? And if the visiting coach did object, why did he play or why didn't he put in a follow-up complaint to the MHSSAA?

Just wondering if we're getting the whole story here....

Not that it matters, being that it's got diddley squat to do with us anyway.