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-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   Liability Issue @ Ortonville (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/31397-liability-issue-ortonville.html)

TimTaylor Thu Feb 01, 2007 03:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreeneFam
This is not a place to come for answers? I would think an officiating message board would be the foremost place to come for answers regarding an officiating question.
I did check out the Michigan High School Athletic Association's website regarding insurance liability and according to them, unregistered officials would not be covered by them.

I am not looking to take any legal action, I was merely wondering for my own curiosity.
If you're looking for help on how a particular rule is interpreted or enforced, or officiating philosophy in general, this is a great place to come. But the questions you posed have nothing to do with officiating - they're about policies and procedures of a state sports governing body & while you will undoubtedly get some opinions here, if you're looking for accurate answers, the governing body for your state the place to go. These policies differ greatly from state to state, and are made by folks far higher up the food chain than us lowly officials.......

chartrusepengui Thu Feb 01, 2007 03:56pm
the rule about not starting with only one registered official is statewide. Another thought - kids 17 -18 can be registered in WI. They receive a "restricted" card which enables them to officiate any sub-varsity contests. My daughter did that a year ago. Got started with MS tournaments and this year has worked up through JV after attending a participating in a couple officials camps this summer.

GreeneFam Thu Feb 01, 2007 03:56pm
GarthB-
No because the principal acknowledged it. The fact that they are females had nothing to do with anything. I did re-read my OP and agree that I used that term a lot, but I would have been just as upset if a MALE student had refereed the game. The gender was not the issue. I am sorry you are taking such offense at the adjective FEMALE.

I can only assumed I used the term FEMALE to better describe who had been chosen to officiate. If it was a middle aged white balding man, I would have said middle aged white balding man.

Again - my question is to the registered officials: Would this situation disturb you? Or should I just let it go, like one PP suggested and let them play?

mick Thu Feb 01, 2007 03:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreeneFam
I am interested in hearing some opinions from registered officials on this matter.

On Tuesday, January 23rd my stepson participated in a Freshman Boys Basketball game at Brandon High School. Due to poor planning or scheduling, or perhaps just mixed signals, no registered officials were present at this game. Instead, a woman faculty member of Brandon High School, and also what I can only assume was an underaged female student, were asked to "referee" this contest. I'm not quite sure the reasoning behind this decision. Perhaps Brandon didn't want to forfeit the game, or perhaps the parties responsible simply didn't realize the error they were making in this decision.

Am I wrong in assuming that the athletic director of Brandon High School made a huge mistake by allowing these two unregistered females to officiate? Two random unregistered females are not insured in a situation like this. Especially an underaged student. Had an accident happened during that game, both the female "referees" would have been in enormous legal trouble, not to mention the school.

Did Brandon High School violate any laws or rules by allowing this to happen? My son was on the visiting team from Rochester, and a few of us were appalled by this.
GreeneFam,
I was raised in Fenton and Ortonville, Brandon, Rochester all seem like Michigan communities.

In Michigan, using unregistered officials does, as you say, open the liability issue to all participating parties (i.e., administration, athletic department, officials).

In addition a school stands to be subject to censure, probation with or without competition, loss of revenue sharing and/or expulsion from the MHSAA.

Further, it is the reponsibility of both schools to use only registered officials.

If the MHSAA does not know, then it never happened.
mick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Ref
I doubt very much that anyone here could give you any kind of definitive answer. It's really outside our area of expertise.
Watchutalkin' 'bout? ;)

GreeneFam Thu Feb 01, 2007 03:59pm
thank You Mick!!!!!

JRutledge Thu Feb 01, 2007 04:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreeneFam
This is not a place to come for answers? I would think an officiating message board would be the foremost place to come for answers regarding an officiating question.
I did check out the Michigan High School Athletic Association's website regarding insurance liability and according to them, unregistered officials would not be covered by them.

I am not looking to take any legal action, I was merely wondering for my own curiosity.
And you would be wrong. Officials are not administrators. All State Associations such as the MHSAA and the IHSA where I live, are groups compiled of schools and the agreement they have with each other. Officials have to basically request to be a member or licensed as an official to work those games. In my state there is even an Official's Advisory Board and all that group can do is make requests. If the Board of Directors (School Superintends, Principals and other school Administrators are on this board, no officials) are in charge of approving officials issues all the way. In no way can the Official's Advisory Committee ever override the issues of the larger board. All we can do is give information and hope they consider them. And most people here are not in those positions to know what your state does or does not do as it relates to those kinds of rules and liabilities.

Peace

GarthB Thu Feb 01, 2007 04:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreeneFam
GarthB-
No because the principal acknowledged it. The fact that they are females had nothing to do with anything. I did re-read my OP and agree that I used that term a lot, but I would have been just as upset if a MALE student had refereed the game. The gender was not the issue. I am sorry you are taking such offense at the adjective FEMALE.

I can only assumed I used the term FEMALE to better describe who had been chosen to officiate. If it was a middle aged white balding man, I would have said middle aged white balding man.
Yeah....right.

Say, what was the principal? Obviously not a FEMALE. (And I've checked, HE isn't.) Why didn't you label him as you did the FEMALE referees?

As I said, you obviously have other problems with these "referees."

Jurassic Referee Thu Feb 01, 2007 04:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
mick


Watchutalkin' 'bout? ;)
We are not worthy....:D
http://deephousepage.com/smilies/respect.gif

GreeneFam Thu Feb 01, 2007 04:03pm
And you obviously have issues with men.

GarthB Thu Feb 01, 2007 04:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreeneFam
And you obviously have issues with men.
OOOOOOH, how 8th grade of you. I'm hurt to the quick.

Thank God for the ignore list...just in case you decide to hang around, you manly guy you.

jmaellis Thu Feb 01, 2007 04:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreeneFam
I am interested in hearing some opinions from registered officials on this matter.

On Tuesday, January 23rd my stepson participated in a Freshman Boys Basketball game at Brandon High School. Due to poor planning or scheduling, or perhaps just mixed signals, no registered officials were present at this game. Instead, a woman faculty member of Brandon High School, and also what I can only assume was an underaged female student, were asked to "referee" this contest. I'm not quite sure the reasoning behind this decision. Perhaps Brandon didn't want to forfeit the game, or perhaps the parties responsible simply didn't realize the error they were making in this decision.

Am I wrong in assuming that the athletic director of Brandon High School made a huge mistake by allowing these two unregistered females to officiate? Two random unregistered females are not insured in a situation like this. Especially an underaged student. Had an accident happened during that game, both the female "referees" would have been in enormous legal trouble, not to mention the school.

Did Brandon High School violate any laws or rules by allowing this to happen? My son was on the visiting team from Rochester, and a few of us were appalled by this.
Since you didn't mention that the fill-in referees did poorly, I'm assuming that they must have performed at least okay, considering the circumstances. Sounds like BHS tried to make the best of a bad situation. So, why exactly were you "appalled"?

Since you are "appalled" that they played the game without registered officials, I'm assuming that you would have rather the contest be canceled. I'm also assuming that since you and the others were "appalled" by what was happening you didn't allow your son(s) to take the court.

Or are you "appalled" because the referees were female (registered or not)? The fact that the fill-ins were women seems to be a very important to you; you mentioned it several times.

GreeneFam Thu Feb 01, 2007 04:08pm
Well since this is turning ugly, and the lovely Garth has hijacked this thread to attack me, I will bow out. I did get my answer, thank you Mick! And thanks to everyone else who was helpful...
:)

JRutledge Thu Feb 01, 2007 04:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreeneFam
No I know this for a fact, one official was a substitute teacher, the other was student, still dressed in her JV volleyball practice uniform. The teacher MAY have been registered, but I find that a stretch. And after emailing the principal he acknowledge that there were no registered officials present.
Well considering that there are a high percentage of officials that are teachers, you could be very wrong. I know a lot of coaches that retired from coaching and became an official or are an official in another sport outside of the sport they coach. Ed Hightower is a School Superintend in Edwardsville, Illinois and has worked in the Big Ten for years. Rick Hartzell is a Big Ten Official and is a college at AD at Northern Iowa (which I am sure he has a teaching background as well). I even think Hank Nichols has a PhD and was a teacher in his background. These are just famous examples, I could go on and on with all the state final officials in my area that are teachers.

Peace

Bad Zebra Thu Feb 01, 2007 04:11pm
Lets cut the OP some slack...Seems like (s)he just came to get opinions/info from our perspective. How did this turn into a gender thing? I think we're reading a bit too much into the original post. Doesn't seem like we're being very gracious here with a guest from outside our ranks.

mick Thu Feb 01, 2007 04:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreeneFam
thank You Mick!!!!!
No praw.
Yeah, the folks on this forum are pretty dang great at answering any questions on the rules of basketball, though your question had more to do with administration.

If you want to check a link with this in writing try this:
http://www.mhsaa.com/resources/offguide.pdf (see page 7)

Welcome to the Forum, even if you are a Troll [live below the Bridge].
If you are interested enough to hang around and want to know about rules from unbiased parties, there be some plenty smart folks here.
mick


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