Liability Issue @ Ortonville
 

I am interested in hearing some opinions from registered officials on this matter.

On Tuesday, January 23rd my stepson participated in a Freshman Boys Basketball game at Brandon High School. Due to poor planning or scheduling, or perhaps just mixed signals, no registered officials were present at this game. Instead, a woman faculty member of Brandon High School, and also what I can only assume was an underaged female student, were asked to "referee" this contest. I'm not quite sure the reasoning behind this decision. Perhaps Brandon didn't want to forfeit the game, or perhaps the parties responsible simply didn't realize the error they were making in this decision.

Am I wrong in assuming that the athletic director of Brandon High School made a huge mistake by allowing these two unregistered females to officiate? Two random unregistered females are not insured in a situation like this. Especially an underaged student. Had an accident happened during that game, both the female "referees" would have been in enormous legal trouble, not to mention the school.

Did Brandon High School violate any laws or rules by allowing this to happen? My son was on the visiting team from Rochester, and a few of us were appalled by this.

Check and see if your state has rules covering the situation. I doubt very much that anyone here could give you any kind of definitive answer. It's really outside our area of expertise.

I do know that most school insurance policies will still cover whoever the school designates to officiate, so I doubt that the there was no coverage for your team or your son. I'm not a lawyer though.

You cannot start a game with only one registered official. I have not seen anything regarding the use of non-registered officials. I'm not sure what effect a conference game using officials such as these would have on standings etc.

I think that the players/team members etc would all be covered under insurance policies for any injuries etc that might happen- perhaps even the non-registered officials as well. However, the insurance companies themselves might look to take action against the unregistered officials if they believed that their action, inaction, or lack of basketball knowledge was a contributing factor in an incident. In any case - I think that the game should not have been played under those circumstances.

This isn't the place to come for answers - you need to be asking these questions of someone at your State governing association for high school sports to find out what their policies and procedures are. Before you do though, get facts - assumptions and opinions are worthless.

Perhaps that is true where you live, but I think in most places, you can play a game with only one official.

Yup, that is a state issue. In my state, as I understand it, the host school would have to forfeit the games because all high school contests need to have two registered officials (or 3). In middle school games only 1 official has to be registered with the state.

This is not a place to come for answers? I would think an officiating message board would be the foremost place to come for answers regarding an officiating question.
I did check out the Michigan High School Athletic Association's website regarding insurance liability and according to them, unregistered officials would not be covered by them.

I am not looking to take any legal action, I was merely wondering for my own curiosity.

Would you have been less appalled if the game was just cancelled after travelling across town? I'd give the home team administration some credit for letting it take place at all. Understand that it was a sub-varsity contest...that means, most likely, the only real effect of not playing would be on the JV players.

I'm not a lawyer, but I expect the "refs" they used were probably covered legally & insurance wise as they were performing duties related to athletic activity...whether as a student or faculty member. Just a guess, though.

We cannot start a game with only one registered official, however, if something happens where an official cannot continue, the game may be finished with only one official even if the incapicatated official was hurt on the jump ball starting the game.

kind of weird.

All officials must be registered from MS through HS Varsity contests.

Says whom?

I have had many games over the years start with one official. That is only a local rule if there is any rule that covers this at all. That also might not apply to the OPers area.

Also you cannot assume that the officials are not registered. They very well might have been. All you can do is talk to the coaches and maybe AD to who the officials are, but you cannot assume that they were not licensed or did not fit many requirements of that level.

Peace

They probably didn't violate any laws or rules but I'd bet a game check that they violated the terms of the school's catatrosphic insurance policy. Most of the policies requires officials who are registered with a state association or sanctioning body.

This is not an officiating question. We deal with the rules of the game, not with what your state or school's insurance provider requires.

Just curious...if they had been male, would your post have included this many references to their gender? Doubtful.

Your problem seems to go beyond "unregistered", which for all we know, is an assumption on your part.

No I know this for a fact, one official was a substitute teacher, the other was student, still dressed in her JV volleyball practice uniform. The teacher MAY have been registered, but I find that a stretch. And after emailing the principal he acknowledge that there were no registered officials present.

Why? Because she was a substiture teacher, or because she was a she?

I was "registered" when I worked as a substitute teacher.

If you're looking for help on how a particular rule is interpreted or enforced, or officiating philosophy in general, this is a great place to come. But the questions you posed have nothing to do with officiating - they're about policies and procedures of a state sports governing body & while you will undoubtedly get some opinions here, if you're looking for accurate answers, the governing body for your state the place to go. These policies differ greatly from state to state, and are made by folks far higher up the food chain than us lowly officials.......

the rule about not starting with only one registered official is statewide. Another thought - kids 17 -18 can be registered in WI. They receive a "restricted" card which enables them to officiate any sub-varsity contests. My daughter did that a year ago. Got started with MS tournaments and this year has worked up through JV after attending a participating in a couple officials camps this summer.

GarthB-
No because the principal acknowledged it. The fact that they are females had nothing to do with anything. I did re-read my OP and agree that I used that term a lot, but I would have been just as upset if a MALE student had refereed the game. The gender was not the issue. I am sorry you are taking such offense at the adjective FEMALE.

I can only assumed I used the term FEMALE to better describe who had been chosen to officiate. If it was a middle aged white balding man, I would have said middle aged white balding man.

Again - my question is to the registered officials: Would this situation disturb you? Or should I just let it go, like one PP suggested and let them play?

GreeneFam,
I was raised in Fenton and Ortonville, Brandon, Rochester all seem like Michigan communities.

In Michigan, using unregistered officials does, as you say, open the liability issue to all participating parties (i.e., administration, athletic department, officials).

In addition a school stands to be subject to censure, probation with or without competition, loss of revenue sharing and/or expulsion from the MHSAA.

Further, it is the reponsibility of both schools to use only registered officials.

If the MHSAA does not know, then it never happened.
mick

Watchutalkin' 'bout? ;)

And you would be wrong. Officials are not administrators. All State Associations such as the MHSAA and the IHSA where I live, are groups compiled of schools and the agreement they have with each other. Officials have to basically request to be a member or licensed as an official to work those games. In my state there is even an Official's Advisory Board and all that group can do is make requests. If the Board of Directors (School Superintends, Principals and other school Administrators are on this board, no officials) are in charge of approving officials issues all the way. In no way can the Official's Advisory Committee ever override the issues of the larger board. All we can do is give information and hope they consider them. And most people here are not in those positions to know what your state does or does not do as it relates to those kinds of rules and liabilities.

Peace

Yeah....right.

Say, what was the principal? Obviously not a FEMALE. (And I've checked, HE isn't.) Why didn't you label him as you did the FEMALE referees?

As I said, you obviously have other problems with these "referees."

We are not worthy....:D
http://deephousepage.com/smilies/respect.gif

And you obviously have issues with men.

OOOOOOH, how 8th grade of you. I'm hurt to the quick.

Thank God for the ignore list...just in case you decide to hang around, you manly guy you.

Since you didn't mention that the fill-in referees did poorly, I'm assuming that they must have performed at least okay, considering the circumstances. Sounds like BHS tried to make the best of a bad situation. So, why exactly were you "appalled"?

Since you are "appalled" that they played the game without registered officials, I'm assuming that you would have rather the contest be canceled. I'm also assuming that since you and the others were "appalled" by what was happening you didn't allow your son(s) to take the court.

Or are you "appalled" because the referees were female (registered or not)? The fact that the fill-ins were women seems to be a very important to you; you mentioned it several times.

Well since this is turning ugly, and the lovely Garth has hijacked this thread to attack me, I will bow out. I did get my answer, thank you Mick! And thanks to everyone else who was helpful...
:)

Well considering that there are a high percentage of officials that are teachers, you could be very wrong. I know a lot of coaches that retired from coaching and became an official or are an official in another sport outside of the sport they coach. Ed Hightower is a School Superintend in Edwardsville, Illinois and has worked in the Big Ten for years. Rick Hartzell is a Big Ten Official and is a college at AD at Northern Iowa (which I am sure he has a teaching background as well). I even think Hank Nichols has a PhD and was a teacher in his background. These are just famous examples, I could go on and on with all the state final officials in my area that are teachers.

Peace

Lets cut the OP some slack...Seems like (s)he just came to get opinions/info from our perspective. How did this turn into a gender thing? I think we're reading a bit too much into the original post. Doesn't seem like we're being very gracious here with a guest from outside our ranks.

No praw.
Yeah, the folks on this forum are pretty dang great at answering any questions on the rules of basketball, though your question had more to do with administration.

If you want to check a link with this in writing try this:
http://www.mhsaa.com/resources/offguide.pdf (see page 7)

Welcome to the Forum, even if you are a Troll [live below the Bridge].
If you are interested enough to hang around and want to know about rules from unbiased parties, there be some plenty smart folks here.
mick

I don't think so. Supply and demand, school was not able to get registered officials but you would be surprise at the # of officials that aren't register working these less than varisty games. IMO, this was a 9th grade game. That's it! The school doesn't charge for fans to come and see a 9th grade game. Only the parents are there to watch this. I think where issues may arise in regards to having certified officials is in the varsity game. School or state administrative boards are not going to want to hear your arguments regarding a 9th grade game and certified officials, but that's jmo. If you want to argue your kid getting hurt, he could get hurt with certified officials as well. If you're worried about this and possibly looking to take legal action, you probably shouldn't have your kid playing this sport.

BTW, all schools have liability insurance on all events. The school is covered insurance wise and that includes attorney fees, in case some parent gets a wild hair up they azz and trys to sue them for some off-the-wall crap.

One party that hasn't been heard from so far is the coach of the visiting team from Rochester. If he/she didn't object or have a problem with the officials, why the big to-do? And if the visiting coach did object, why did he play or why didn't he put in a follow-up complaint to the MHSSAA?

Just wondering if we're getting the whole story here....

Not that it matters, being that it's got diddley squat to do with us anyway.

I have not read anyone attacking the OPer in any way. I think people are explaining some facts that might apply and telling them we do not have all the knowledge of the circumstances. First of all none of us where there at the game site. So I would think that anyone posting on a site would understand that much of this needs to be addressed to the people that are directly involved. For all we know there were registered officials and that their perceptions of who those officials were might be wrong. Who knows, I was not there and neither was anyone else that has responded. It might be a legitimate question, but you have to realize that this is not the place to ask those questions. All this person has to do is call the coach and go from there.

Peace

I am a senior in highschool, registered and from what I am told I am becoming a good official. Maybe she is registered, and the school knew that so when they needed someone last minuite they asked her and since she did not know she did not bring her gear with her.

Well, Rut, GarthB did accuse the OP - a couple times - of having a problem with the gender of the substitute officials and implied that was his entire problem...I read it as an attack.

I read it as an observation.

Fair enough, though post #25 made my perception of his posts turn from observation to attack. JMO, though... :D

I read that as an observation as well. Now that was not my original observation, but that does not mean I am correct. I guess if someone speaks their mind about something that has to be an attack.

Oh well, carry on with your little accusations. ;)

Peace

Actually our league does charge for 9th grade games, and $5 per ticket at that! Crazy, IMO. Like I stated in an earlier post, I am not at all looking to take legal action. This was merely out of my own curiosity, and resulting from several conversations with other parents. The fact that it was 9th grade and not a Varsity game, in my mind, does not warrant putting players in harm's way by allowing unregistered, uninsured officials to ref the games.

Also to the PP who stated the he/she was a senior in high school and also a registered official, I want to clarify that the principal of the school apologized in an email for letting "unregistered" officials referee the game. The reason I suspected she was not registered was because she was underage and wearing a JV volleyball uniform. The principals admission that she was, in fact, not registered is how I confirmed my suspicion.

Shucks! 20 folks show up and the school has paid for two officials and the table, ... but not the lights.

I quickly glanced through the posts and I have a question I didn't see asked or answered. So here it is:

Since you were appalled (your word) by the lack of certified referees, did you pull your son off the court?

I'm assuming you did. What did he say?

That's not accurate.

I did question whether part of his problem was with women officials. In his entire story, the only people he identified by gender were the women, despite his later claim that he'd have done the same if the officials were men. In reality, there were at least three men in his story, two coaches and the principal, and he didn't find it necessary to identify them by gender. I believe he has shown that part of his problem is that the "referees" were women.

However, I never concluded that this was his entire problem, only that it was involved. When he attempted to play the junior high attitude card, I pulled out of the conversation with him and placed him on my ignore list.

I don't see any of this as an attack.

michgan requires all officials to be registered to officiate any high school basketball games...

It's all good. :D I don't agree with the premise of his post much in the first place, but just found the way I interpreted your "tone" (which obviously is impossible in the message board world) as something you've indicated it wasn't in post #25.

I'll definitely take your word for it!

Again, what does your coach say about all this? He put all of the players in harm's way by playing the game, didn't he? Personally, I'd have to say that's just as bad, if not worse, than the other school using unregistered refs? And how do you actually <b>know</b> that those refs were uninsured?

I would <b>never</b> be critical. That's not my nature. But I would like to know all of the facts surrounding this situation before I respond further.

Are you serious? This has to be a made-up story. A female student who was a JV volleyball player? I know the mindset of girls JV volleyballers or girls at the JV level in any sport. I have a dughter in high school and sisters who were much younger than me and to think that they may come out of wherever to officiate a boys frosh game is hilarious ... not to mention, very unlikely. How bad was this game to watch. even if it was a JV boys basketball player - seriously doubt this happened.

No mention of how they officiated the game. Not going to say anyhting about the sub teacher, but the JV Volleyball player may have used the travel signal for subs and can't imaine what the whistle analysis sheet may have looked liked? This is a hoax! A guy just decided to think out loud on this site.

I'm not entirely sure, Johnny. A junior could be a JV player, and there are probably quite a few juniors (boys or girls) in hs who've done enough reffing that they could manage, if not handle well, a boys' frosh game. You may know a lot of JV girl athletes but you sure don't know them all. I'll be there are at least a few out there who'd be willing to do this.

Someone asked how the refs did. I'm also interested to note that the OP has at no point criticized the flow of the game, or any calls or mechanics. Maybe she did a decent job.

We've got kids of that age in our training program, including several young ladies of approximately that age also. We use them in AAU/rec type games to get experience. They're usually keen as hell and are like sponges when it comes to learning. I'd sureashell rather see them out on the court in a situation like this than some parent plucked from the stands just to make sure the game gets played.

Jmo, but I really don't think that it's fair to speculate on how good/bad the kid might have been without actually seeing the game either. That's fanboy thinking, not official's thinking. The kid might have done a good job.

It's also possible that this student played girls basketball during the fall. She would be somewhat familiar with the game.

To the OP: Yes, it would be better if "registered" officials did the game. But, given that officials weren't at the site, the choice becomes cancelling / postponing the game, or playing with other officials. Neither is a good choice.

If MI has some specific rules about what to do, you'll find them from the MI High School Atletic Association (or similar name). AFAIK, no one here is intimately familiar with the MI "administrative" rules and regulations.

As long as the teams keep playing "basketball", then I don't see any additional injury / safety issues from not having registered officials. Maybe the AD thought that s/he could control any extracurricular activites, or step in if the game became "too rough" as a result of the officiating.

In any event I'm still wondering why this concerned parent let his kid play if he thought it was dangerous.

I suspect he aint coming back so we'll never know.

I agree that we should be gracious to our guests. I also agree that it is O.K. to call our guests on their evident biases. The repeated references to female officials also drew my attention.

I agree with the OP in acknowledging his assumption that the term "female" was used "to better describe who had been chosen to officiate." That assumption, however, has the evil (is that too strong a word? naw...) connotation of being less able or less qualified. That's the way it was used, anyway, and I think it's helpful for Garth to have pointed that out.

After the professed assumption, our guest didst protesteth too much. He said: "If it was a middle aged white balding man, I would have said middle aged white balding man." Actually, no he wouldn't. As another has observed, our guest did not describe the age, race or hair status of any of the men in the scenario. And, if that's how he would have described the man, why don't we know the age of the faculty member and/or the race or hair quality of either officials?

These are small points, yes, but this is not "political correctness." This is calling a bias and bias and the collective effort of all of us to root out biases (our own, as well as others') will strengthen our society. IMHO.

Don't let Mick fool you...he's one of them!

Could be. But if you re-read the thread you'll see where Greene posted the admins stated neither were registered.

I still tink it is a hoax. A quick look at the schools website shows that there was a boys basketball game on the road at Lapeer East and the OP said that tickets to Frosh games were $5 - well, on the website it reads:

Brandon High School Ticket Prices

Varsity Football $5.00
JV & Freshman Football $5.00
Varsity & JV Boys’/Girls’ Basketball $5.00
Freshman Boys’/Girls’ Basketball $3.00
Varsity Hockey $5.00
Wrestling $5.00
Varsity, JV, Freshman Volleyball $5.00
Varsity & JV Boys’/Girls’ Soccer $5.00
Spring Sports (if charged) $5.00

There's a list some nontruth going on here.

Just for the record, I am a woman, LOL. Not that it should make a difference as Garth pointed out, but I keep being referred to as "HE."

No, I did not pull my son out of the game as a PP asked. Maybe I should have, looking back now... I am just grateful nothing bad happened.

Thanks again to the few posters who have pointed out that I was indeed correct to be concerned since "Michigan requires all officials to be registered to officiate any high school basketball games."

Someone also asked what our coach thought about the situation, obviously we didn't talk to him directly about it until later, and he said he was pretty surprised that they chose to use unregistered officials. He also said that several days later the school's Varsity Coach called him personally to apologize saying he couldn't believe it when he heard what had happened and assured him that it was not indicative of how their program is usually run....

And again, I know they were uninsured, unregistered officials because we asked the school's principal and athletic director about it and they admitted it. I assure you this is not a hoax! I am LOL'ing at "Johnny Ringo" who is as dumfounded as we were. There were a few girls (sorry Garth, but they were GIRLS) sitting together in the corner of the gym, and the athletic director went over and asked one to ref. I dont know if maybe she was more familiar with basketball then the rest of the students in the gym, or if simply he needed a "body" to fill in, but she was there.

Please refer to our schedule (Rochester) on our school's website to see that the game on the date in question DID happen. I think the JV and Varsity teams might have been playing at Lapeer that night, but Freshman were not. I might have been mistaken on the price of admission --- was it $3?? Maybe ... but the fact is, we did paid to get in, we did play a game at that gym, the official were female, and they were NOT registered.
http://www.rochester.k12.mi.us/index...1950&name=Boys Basketball

Thanks again for all your comments...

For the record, you being a woman does not preclude you from having a problem with a woman in an authority situation. It is often the very people that have a problem with women in authority are often other women. It is not like women are not raised in similar environments as men and share many of the same sexist views as men.

I have no idea if that is an issue with you, but I did think you focused a lot on the fact that you had female officials. Why that was I have no idea.

Peace

Well, dumbfounded indeed. In my 18 years I have never seen a female sub teacher come out of the stands and a JV volleyball player grab a whistle. Not saying it can't happen, but to quote a line from the 1993 movie Tombstone:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Texas Jack: You ever seen somethin' like that before?
Turkey Creek Jack Johnson: Hell, I never even heard of something like that.

LMAO!! That's why it was such a bizarre situation! We were just looking at each other like, "Is this happening?" I dont know... maybe it was because it was "just" a 9th grade game. Whatever... I am over it now. I stumbled across this message board while searching the Michigan High School Athletic Association websites regarding officiating rules, and thought I'd post to see what you all thought.

And I just have to laugh at the notion that you are all assuming I have problems with women in authority. I AM a woman in authority! :) I could care less if the refs were women or men. (We have several women refs in our league.) Again, it was the unregistered, uninsured, under-aged part that struck a cord with me.

Thanks everyone.

Once again, there are some that would say that women tend to have more problems with other women than they do with men. Just because you are in an authority position does not take away that you "could" have such an issue. Just by the fact that you seemed to question her qualifications says something to me.

Peace

Ok, LOL. :) We'll just agree to disagree then! :)

man - its time to let it go already!

And the five or so seperate references to the "female" referees.

So let's look at it this way:

At the time no one, including you, felt the players were in any danger.

Hindsight is 20-20 and all that happy bullsh1t...but if you felt your own son was safe that's good enough for me.

Let it go. There may come a day when you have absolutely zero say in what danger your son may face.

Let it go.

I wonder if GreeneFam's son's team won or lost the game?

And did that have anything to do with the subsequent email's and conversations about the officials and their lack of credentials?

Just curious....

I just want to add something here. "Unregistered" does not mean untrained, necessarily.
How did you find the officiating compared to other games you've seen?

We won the game, LOL!
The officiating was as good (or as bad, depending on how you look at it) as any other game we've had.

I need to stop checking this thread!! This was the last time, I swear, LOL. THANKS! :)