The "Carry" are we all calling it the same?

[Peter Devana]

In our area we are experiencing some difficulty in getting all officials to call the "Allen Iverson" style "carry " consistently. We teach that it is a carry when the ball comes to rest in the hand with the back of the hand facing the floor during a dribble. Are any other associations or groups experiencing the same and if so, what are you doing to correct it.
Pistol

[paulis]

It is not a requirement that the back of the hand be facing the floor for a carry to occur. That is a no-brainer. It is when the dribbler is manipulating the ball without actually having his/her hand underneath the ball where some of us are not making the correct carrying the ball call. In my pre-game I like to emphasize that if it is close and early in the game, it is a carry. The problem tends to go away by getting the border line call in this way.

[williebfree]

Our state (Wisconsin) used a tape produced/distributed by the NFHS which had several extreeeemly poor illustrations. The demonstration of a "carry" was not "up to par".

Another very poor example was the "Block/Charge" illustration, but that is grounds another thread.

[Dan_ref]

Yep, I'm seeing inconsistent calls on this in my area
also. We "punish" those who are slow to call it by moving
them up to the varsity list. Consistent violators go to
state championships.

(Only semi-tongue in cheek.)

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Yep, I'm seeing inconsistent calls on this in my area
also. We "punish" those who are slow to call it by moving
them up to the varsity list. Consistent violators go to
state championships.

(Only semi-tongue in cheek.)

Those must be the same guys who don't call three seconds if the violator isn't "involved in the play", whatever the hell that means.

[ChuckElias]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Padgett

Those must be the same guys who don't call three seconds if the violator isn't "involved in the play", whatever the hell that means.

Mark, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but is there really a question about what "involved in the play" means? If A1 is standing 14' from the basket at the top of the lane while the big guy A2 maneuvers for a shot on the opposite block, then A1 is not involved in the play.

If big guy A2 is standing with one foot in the lane near the low block while A1 dribbles the ball above the 3-point line waiting for the final shot of the half, then A2 is not involved in the play. (You might say that he is involved in a possible put-back after the shot, but there's no way you're going to call 3-seconds while A1 dribbles down the clock.)

Chuck

[Richard Ogg]

When that big guy is standing with a foot in the paint I bet I yell "Get out of the key!" though. HS players will move; JH players are statues.

[Mark Padgett]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

Mark, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but is there really a question about what "involved in the play" means? If A1 is standing 14' from the basket at the top of the lane while the big guy A2 maneuvers for a shot on the opposite block, then A1 is not involved in the play.

If big guy A2 is standing with one foot in the lane near the low block while A1 dribbles the ball above the 3-point line waiting for the final shot of the half, then A2 is not involved in the play. (You might say that he is involved in a possible put-back after the shot, but there's no way you're going to call 3-seconds while A1 dribbles down the clock.)

Chuck

Well, since we've switched over to this topic, my position is that if the NF wants the rule called that way, they should change the rule, the same way it reads about giving consideration to the shooter in the lane.

Too often have I seen a player camping in the lane way outside - there is no call - and then that player gets a rebound he was not entitled to, or receives a dish off pass and has great position to go to the basket.

If you want to adhere to the theory that you don't call this, go ahead. Perhaps a compromise would be to use a very vocal count, so the player has a warning to clear the lane. Of course, you would have to do that all game long, since players are always in the lane for some period of time.

Call it properly according to the rule the first time it happens and by the third or fourth time you call it, they will get the message and you won't have to make judgement calls all night as to whether a player "is involved in the play" or not - because just when you think he is not - he is.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Richard Ogg
When that big guy is standing with a foot in the paint I bet I yell "Get out of the key!" though. HS players will move; JH players are statues.

Uh-oh, Mick's not gonna like this!

[Brad]

Too often have I seen a player camping in the lane way outside - there is no call - and then that player gets a rebound he was not entitled to, or receives a dish off pass and has great position to go to the basket.

I'm not sure what you mean by "way outside" but there is no 3-seconds after the ball leaves a player's hands on a try, so what difference does it make?

Call it properly according to the rule the first time it happens and by the third or fourth time you call it, they will get the message and you won't have to make judgement calls all night as to whether a player "is involved in the play" or not - because just when you think he is not - he is.

Three seconds is the right call in many instances. However, when a trap is set at half court and there is a post player "in the lane" it is NOT a good call. That sort of play is what others are talking about -- something that is outside the spirit and intent of the rule.

BTW, how many multiple fouls did you call last season?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Brad
Too often have I seen a player camping in the lane way outside - there is no call - and then that player gets a rebound he was not entitled to, or receives a dish off pass and has great position to go to the basket.

I'm not sure what you mean by "way outside" but there is no 3-seconds after the ball leaves a player's hands on a try, so what difference does it make?

Call it properly according to the rule the first time it happens and by the third or fourth time you call it, they will get the message and you won't have to make judgement calls all night as to whether a player "is involved in the play" or not - because just when you think he is not - he is.

Three seconds is the right call in many instances. However, when a trap is set at half court and there is a post player "in the lane" it is NOT a good call. That sort of play is what others are talking about -- something that is outside the spirit and intent of the rule.

BTW, how many multiple fouls did you call last season?

Believe it or not, I do know that the 3 second count ends on a try! But that player in the lane has already established his position illegally by the time the try is taken.

As to the post being in the lane during a trap and being called not being in the spirit and intent of the rule, change the rule so it is consistent with the spirit and intent. Besides, I'm not sure I agree with your statement anyway.

Lastly, I have never called a multiple foul in 23 seasons. That's not because I don't want to, it's because it has never, ever, ever happened

[Brad]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Believe it or not, I do know that the 3 second count ends on a try! But that player in the lane has already established his position illegally by the time the try is taken.[/B]

Right... But if the shot is taken it is too late... Besides, again, what affect did that player have on the play?

The 3 second violation is designed to prevent players from camping out in the lane, receiving a pass, and making an easy basket from an advantageous position. If a player is in the lane on the side opposite from where the play is being made, who cares? He is not even involved in the play!

If a player is in the lane, and has the potential to receive the ball, and does not get out -- call it. If the player is in the lane 2 seconds, receives the ball and makes a move for the basket -- pause your count. If that player scores, great. If not, resume your count and make the 3 second violation call if he does not get out of the lane.

However, IMHO, far too many officials make the 3 seconds call when it has absolutely nothing to do with what is going on in the game. It is just as important to understand the spirit and intent of the rule regarding 3 seconds is as it is for all the other rules.

(i.e. Do you always call a technical foul when the books aren't ready 10 minutes before tip?)

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Brad

The 3 second violation is designed to prevent players from camping out in the lane, receiving a pass, and making an easy basket from an advantageous position. If a player is in the lane on the side opposite from where the play is being made, who cares? He is not even involved in the play!
[/B]

I will call it when such a position forces a defender to split his attention and leave the lane open for a drive. Although, the post is on the opposite side of the lane (still in the paint though) he has affected the play.

[Peter Devana]

Although we are off the original topic I have to agree totally with the last 2 threads re: 3 seconds calls and when to disregard same-Right On!
Pistol

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Brad
The 3 second violation is designed to prevent players from camping out in the lane, receiving a pass, and making an easy basket from an advantageous position. If a player is in the lane on the side opposite from where the play is being made, who cares? He is not even involved in the play!

If this player is able to gain an advantageous rebounding position by being in the lane illegally, hasn't he involved himself in the game?