Very well officiated D-I game last night
 

I watched in person last night as Steve Welmer, Ed Hightower, and Brad Ferrie called a great game with Missouri vs. Kansas State. A few theatrics, as both Steve and Ed like to make sure you know what they're calling, but overall one of the best-officiated games I've seen all year (probably have watched 10 D-I games in person).

Also a lot of fun to watch them work with two pretty outspoken coaches in Mike Anderson and Bob Huggins. Saw Huggins get the "stop" sign from Hightower once and Ferrie spent quite a bit of time with Anderson on occasion. Welmer seemed to end up on their side of the court a lot and had some pretty lengthy conversations.

Anyway - as a relatively inexperienced official focusing totally on NFHS for now, what do you recommend I watch (regarding officials) when at an NCAA game, and what's best to disregard? I know some things apply and some don't between the levels, but I'd be interested in what others look for when watching NCAA officiating, especially if you're not an NCAA official yourself.

For the most part watch calls and no-calls. The best thing about watching D1 college games are to see how officials call the game. They do not calling ticky tack calls that do not affect play. I personally feel that the best thing is to simply watch the judgment. After this, watch how officials handle players and coaches. I think D1 officials are some of the best at how they behave when coaches and players are getting goofy. Their body language is similar to the NBA but they are dealing with amateur players in an amateur environment. NBA officials are dealing with men and the expectations of that interaction which can learn from do not require the same style.

I attend the Big Ten Tournament every year and I have learned how to handle coaches better by watching an Ed Hightower, Ted Hilary and Donnie Gray just to name a few.

Also understand that when you watch veterans that have been around for 20+ years they have mechanics or an officiating style that is different. If you watch any sport 20 years ago or more and watch the officials, you will see a drastic difference in the mechanics used. So you cannot use the same standard for newer officials to what Hightower or Welmer does. But you can learn how they call the game because many of their calls are absolutely right on.

Peace

jdw, as example.

Donnee Gray is a excellent official with great judgement and communication skills. However there are some mechanics he employs that you could not get away with. He back-pedals down the court sometimes as the new Lead and he often stands on the inside of the thrower-in as the Lead during frontcourt throw-ins.

This is an approved mechanic. You have the option of staying inside or outside of the thrower. I will have to review the CCA Manual, but it has been an option in the NF for sure. I do not personally like the mechanic, but there is an option.

Peace

I use the mechanic a lot. How about when a throw in from the baseline in the front court is at the intersection of the 3-point line? If I stand outside the thrower, I'm basically off the court. If the offense tries a dish to a post player for a quick layup, I'm totally out of the play.

By standing on the inside on situations like these, you can get a better view. I agree that as a general basis you should stand on the outside. However, in cases like these it is very important that you get that "inside-out" look.

Do you have a problem in 2 man when you are outside? :D

If the ball is out on the baseline, you can pretty much put the ball in anywhere on the baseline. I do not throw on the end line right where the ball went out. So I put them usually in the between the sideline and the FT lane line. It is usually not a problem and whether a player takes the ball a few steps one way or another step the other way. I am not saying you should never use it, I just personally do not like it and I would not teach against it.

Peace

I don't watch too much for calls or no-calls, mechanics, or rules. Those are going to be much different in the kinds of games I do. I watch to see where the refs are looking, and what they're watching for. It's usually not that hard to tell. It gives me a feel for how to get an angle, and when to be focusing where.

I never back-pedal, I have too much fear.

As for standing inside as L for an endline throw-in...so what?

3 man the T has that sideline so who cares. And where's the ball gonna end up if everything goes according to plan? That's right, the basket - which happens to be inside, not outside, on every endline throw in.

I don't agree with this. Tell me if something has changed in the manual, but as far as I know, we are supposed to put the ball in where it went out unless it goes out in the lane area. If what you are saying is true, what would be the difference if the ball went out on the sideline?
If something in the manual has changed, then it is OK to put the ball in play anyplace along the endline. If things haven't changed, the ball is supposed to be put in where it went out or close (by the diagram).

So you are telling me that you have to under no circumstances put the ball at the exact point of where the ball went out no matter what. So if I am on a court that has the words "PANTHERS" on the end line (I am watching the Loyola and North Central on ESPN2 right now) and the ball goes out on the "P" we cannot move the player to the "A" or the "N" under no circumstance? You are going to have to show me that reference that you cannot do that. I am talking about a couple of steps, not from one side of the court to the other. Also, I have never had a coach care in that situation before. I have even seen guys take the ball out to the opposite side of the court and not seen anyone say anything about it (I would not do that).

Peace

I'm only talking about the fact that you said you can put the ball anywhere on the endline. I'm not going to split hairs with a foot one way or the other. Now that I have (somewhat) answered your question, can you answer mine? Do you really put the ball anywhere or do you put the ball at the spot, or pretty close, to where it is supposed to be?

There is nothing to fear but fear itself.

Well, maybe what's under your bed too, but I wouldn't worry about that. Or what's in your closet either. Nope, when you go to bed tonight and turn the lights out, just say to yourself "Self, there's nothing to fear but fear itself". I'm almost sure that everything will be OK.

Is your insurance premium paid up?

I'm almost sure it is

As long as it is just a couple of feet it is fine, but if you go more than that you could really change a teams options and put them at a disadvantage. I officiate but also coach our freshmen boys and I have 3 OOB plays that do not work well at all if we are more than 5 feet from the normal spot just outside the lane for our throw in.

Coach (MJT), we aren't talking about allowing you to set up your play. We are talking about putting the ball where it rightfully belongs on the endline instead of just deciding where the ball should be inbounded. BTW, that is exactly what an official would be doing, plus or minus a foot, if they decide where to put the ball in play. Rut, what do you use to determine where you are going to put the ball into play?

I must be missing something in your post. Are you saying that if the ball goes out at a specific spot, I am supposed to put the ball at that spot or I am violating some kind of rule?

Peace

No, no, no, this doesn't work that way! I asked you at least two questions and you have yet to answer so I will not answer your question.

What determines where you (meaning you, JRut) put the ball into play? Are you saying you would put the ball into play at the approximate spot where it went out or do you mean what you posted and you will put the ball in play anywhere on the endline?

I do not really understand the question. Are you saying I should put the ball out within the length of the ball? If the ball goes out on the end line, I put the ball on the side of the lane that the ball went out on. I do not try to put the ball exactly where it went out or where someone touched the line. I tend to put the ball in a similar spot, but if I do not put it at that spot, so be it.

Now where is your reference that this is wrong? I have attended many camps, worked many games and I have never had a coach or an official get upset over where I put the ball on the end line in my entire career. I do not even know if any coach ever got upset where I put the ball in-bounds if the ball is on the end line.

Peace

:D I almost answered that.

Again, what determines where you put the ball into play? Are you saying you put the ball into play at the approximate spot where it went out or do you mean what you posted and you will put the ball in play anywhere on the endline. For instance, if the ball goes out of bounds where the endline intersects with the three-point line, do you/would you put the ball into play on foot outside of where the lane line intersects with the endline? If you put it at approximately the same spot, you could just say so. If you put the ball in anywhere along the endline regardless of where it went out, you could say that too. If it is the latter, I would appreciate it if you could tell me what determines the spot you choose.

I'm going to sleep now. Maybe we can pick this up tomorrow even though it is already tomorrow some places.

Until you answer my question (which was first and to clarify what you are asking), not sure I can answer your question. Other than to say if the ball goes out of bounds on the end line, I put the ball on the end line. If it goes out on the side line, I put the ball on the side line.

Not necessarily.

What determines the spot? I guess a lot of things. Are you staying in the front court? Is this after a made basket? Where are the cheerleaders? Do I have room on the baseline? Are fans sitting in stands on the end line?

There are a lot of things that may factor, but this is the most I have ever thought about it. If the ball goes out on the end line, I put the ball on the end line. I do not try to be so precise that you can measure with a ruler.

Peace

I didn't go to sleep yet. What question didn't I answer that you asked before the post above?

If you are at lead and the ball goes out of bounds on the other side of the paint, do you put the ball in on the side you are on, on the side it went out on with you over there, or bounce it across the paint? You have yet to tell me what determines where you put the ball into play. If you answered that simple question, we could quite possibly move on and agree to disagree. I have never said anything to make you think I would measure where I put the ball into play, so that statement does not apply here. However, my common sense directsl me where to put the ball into play - I put the ball into play where it went out (unless in the paint area) because...that is where it went out. Doing anything else would be inconsistent to say the least. If you answer my questions it would really shed some light on your thinking because what you are saying now is weird to me. If the ball goes out of bounds or there is a violation, do you do the same thing for the sidelines? If not, why not? Weird.

I do not understand where you were going with this. If you feel it is that important, you have the right to do what works for you. As I have said before, I have never had anyone complain that I did not put the ball out at the "precise" spot. I have had a coach complain after a made FT that I did not hand the thrower the ball on the opposite side of the court in a very loud gym and I did not understand the request. But that is the only time I can think of if there was an issue once we state where the ball goes on the end line if the ball is put at. If I let players dictate, they would take the ball in the lane most of the time. I have to move them all the time from standing right under the basket.

Once again, I am looking for a reference that states to do what you suggest. Other than that I do not see any reason to change.

Tommy, I have never had this conversation with anyone, ever in my career. So forgive me if I am kind of wondering why this is even an issue. Now if you have a person issue with this that is OK, just as long as we understand that. Now that does not mean I drastically move the ball around, but if the ball intersects with the 3 point line and the end line, based on a lot of factors which I stated, I might likely move the player to the half way between the 3 point line and the lane line. To me it does not matter. Even on the sideline, the configuration of the gym and where fans are might dictate many places I put the ball in at just because we might not have space to attempt a throw out of bounds.

Peace

I would bet a large sum of money that you put the ball in the approximate spot where it goes out. I also think I'm not the only one who has heard and mentioned in pregame to put the ball in where it should go. I don't think this is a regional thing or something that just works for me. I think you are just trying to be argumentative. That's cool. I'm done with it.

IF he's not saying it, I will -- you are violating a rule. And, I'll add that it's not a big deal if it's only a small distance. The farther the distance, the bigger the deal.

I *think* tomegun read your words "anywhere along endline" (or whatever they were) and interpreted "a big distance isn't a big deal", while you really meant "anywhere in the general vicinity along the endline."

I am stunned by this. 9-3 PENALTY is pretty clear that the throw-in is from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation. The violation is the ball striking something out of bounds. Nearest would be.....nearest.

Ha ! <font></font>]

Wouldn't moving the ball closer to the lane be giving one team an advantage.

If my team trapped your player in the corner and your player threw the ball off my player and it went OOB between the 3 point arc and the sideline - then the official puts the ball in play halfway between the arc and the lane I would be livid as a coach. Especially late in a tight game. That's why the rule is at the spot closest to where it went out.

JMHO

I am stunned that this is even an issue as well. For one I do not know anyone that reverts back their geometry class and put the ball according to theorems and formulas. Secondly I do not recall that I said anything that violated a rule. I stated that based on a lot of factors I may or may not put the ball in a few steps one way or another. I did not say I move the ball from one side of the court to another. I know it becomes an even more drastic situation when the ball goes out on the sideline, where in many gyms the fans are right off the court or the teams and the table are right next to the line that a player has no place to stand. It is very common to move a player to a spot where there is more room. I guess this will just be something I will have to disagree with people on. If the ball goes out at the "P" I am not going to lose sleep if I bring the ball in on the "A" or "N" in some cases.

Peace

Now that others have chimed in and helped me realize that I'm not totally crazy, look at the quote above.

No geometry class, or pulling out the ruler; I put the ball in approximately where it went out or where the violation occured - the exception is the ball going out of bounds in the lane area. That statement is very different from the quote above.

I would still like to know what determines and/or where the authority comes from to "put the ball in anywhere on the baseline." I just wish there was some straight talk and we could get to the bottom of that.

You should know me by now.
 

Honestly, I do not care what other people say here. We do not officiate on this board. We do officiate in the real world. In the real world I have never had this conversation with anyone, ever including Bob who I have worked with several times. I have never had him say one thing to me about this in pre-game or in basic conversation during meetings. I have never had anyone say this to me in the many camps I attend and I go to at least 5 a year and have had many D1 and higher level officials evaluate me at those camps. I have also never seen anyone told they must put the ball at the "exact spot." And since Bob and I work in relative similar areas, he would have to say this to a lot of people. As I said before, I have a hard enough time trying to get a player to not stand in the middle of the lane on any throw-in along the end line. If it was that important to the teams, you would think they would stand where the ball is. They hardly ever do.

The bottom line we do not agree. I am going to put the ball "anywhere along the end line" if it goes out there. I will put the ball pretty much it went out, but I am not going to lose sleep if I move a couple of feet one way or the other. Now that is me, it does not have to be you. I am still waiting for a reference that suggests that I am wrong. And I mean not an interpretation of what is said, a clear example that you must take it out at this point or else.

Peace

I would like to make a humble suggestion: be consistent with what you say you will do. The quote above is a contradiction to what you said earlier.

I have never said you should put the ball in the exact spot, to the inch, where it want out. I say the ball should be put into play at the approximate spot where it went out.

I guess you can't say you have never had this conversation with another official, college or high school, because now you have. :D I too have never had this conversation, at least not at this length, with another official because it has never been necessary. Like I said earlier, I would bet money you put the ball in the (approximate) spot where it went out or else someone else would have said something to you about it.

I too don't officiate on this board and I don't think anything in this series of posts is so far-fetched to indicate otherwise. This is a no-brainer. There are so many other things to think about during a game, I don't have time to use something random to determine where I'm going to put the ball back into play. BTW, you have yet to say what determines where you put the ball into play. I don't buy the whole chearleader/fan thing. Saying a chearleader would be in the way and determine where the ball goes into play is weak. Since we don't officiate on this board, this should be something you have done thousands of times. The ball goes out of bounds at spot X and you decide to put the ball into play at spot Y, what determines this? If it is all the way in the corner, I can understand. If it is in the lane area, I can understand. Other than that, please tell me what determines why you wouldn't put the ball into play at the approximate location where it went out. Seems like I've asked you that question about 100 times and have yet to receive a simple answer.

Really??? Well, I've personally heard one of the Big Ten officials you list as someone you consider a very good official say it in camps he runs and in the preseason clinics he holds for the officials who work for him. I've heard plenty of officials, including D1 officials I have personally worked with, talk about putting the ball in play at the correct throw-in spot. I have never heard any official say to put the ball in play at an arbitrary spot somewhere near where the ball went OOB.

I think I am very consistent in what I have said. "Approximate" means different things to different people. That word clearly means something to you different to you than it does to me.

When I say never, you know what I mean. If that has to be spelled out to you, well I really do not know what to tell you.

When you have been officiating as long as I have and in other sports for a similar length of period of time, many things are on auto-pilot. I worked in Ottawa, Illinois about a week ago. If anyone on this board has been at that school, there are bleachers just about 5 feet off the end line (approximately ;)). The cheerleaders stand right next to the court. All night we had to move cheerleaders and I was running into them all night just to try to work from the lead position. This was the case on both ends. It was a huge factor in where I put the ball in on the end line because there was so much congestion.

Tommy, I have given you an example, after example, after example. If you do not want to accept this, that is OK with me. I have told you why I do things and you took it so literarily that you cannot understand why someone disagrees with you. Maybe you need an explanation for everything to make you feel better, but I do not. I will say that where I can stand is a factor, but it is not THE FACTOR.

Now the main reason I keep responding to you on this, it is fascinating that this really bothers you. It is almost like we brought up the “stop sign” issue. This is really fascinating that you want a detailed explanation of something I could give a damn about either way. I also have to admit this conversation is also entertaining. ;)

Peace

JRut, you rarely, if ever, type a clear-cut example of any scenarios. You purposely communicate as vaguely as possible and then respond with mock amazement that someone continues to ask you questions. :rolleyes:

I live in Big Ten country. I have also attended a clinic that holds the namesake of a pretty famous Big Ten/Big 12 and Big East official and I have never heard him address this. If you watch Big Monday he is usually working one of the games and he even hired me in his HS conference when he was still assigning it.

Now I say this because I am sure I did the exact same thing in those camps as I do during the season. It does not mean that he never has addressed it with other people, but if he had a problem with where I put the ball or how I put the ball in place, he would be the first to tell me. Now I must be putting the ball in the "approximate spot" to his liking. I think we are splitting hairs here and we are debating over what "is, is" rather than really trying to understand different points of view. And considering that the things that are said to me are little and minor in nature, I would think this would be something he would bring up and openly call me out on. Also he is not the only D1 official working at the camp. So there is more than one person’s opinion at play here. ;)

Peace

I do not feel that the world works in black and white. If you want more specifics, than ask a specific question. You cannot say "what determines....." then get upset when I tell you what determines. If you want to know, "If the ball goes here......do you put it here?" That would be a specific question. There are many factors to anything I do and it would be monotonous to keep point out all the scenarios that may or may not apply to what you want answered.

Peace

Big Ten college officiating has nothing to do with Midwest HS officiating. I know a few successful Big Ten officials as well and they live in North Carolina and Maryland.

And one of them (he's usually working on Big Monday also) hires officials to work JuCo games that are played in Maryland. And he is very meticulous about some things you probably think are unimportant. So someone such as myself or Tomegun who have been evaluated and critiqued by this Big Ten official are in turn going to be meticulous about some of these same things that are may not be important to a Midwest HS supervisor.

When in Rome, do as the Romans...or more apropos to this forum: "When in a region, be regional" ;)

I missed the part where someone got upset. Must be a different thread you are talking about. I said "someone continues to asks questions".

We obviously are not reading the same post, because I never made any comment about what is taught in this area or what is expected. I only referenced the Big Ten because you reference the Big Ten and a successful official.

What I do on this is personal on this. I do not care what others may or may not do. I must be doing something right because no one is saying anything to me "in this region" for what I am doing. And that is not to say that they do not tell me to change things or make a point of a mechanic I use. This just has not been one of them.

Let me also clarify this, I work for two former Big Ten officials and I talk to a couple D1 officials (one worked the NCAA Tournament last year) on a semi-regular basis.

Peace

Rut, I think it is safe to say you put the ball in at the approximate spot it went out at and you just want to be argumentative. That is OK. Please don't think for one minute that you are the only one on this board that knows or has been evaluated by someone who works on TV. You said you would put the ball into play anywhere along the endline. The endline is pretty long for this. Go to one of your camps/clinics where one of your D1 officials is evaluating and try this. To be specific because you asked. If the ball goes out on the enline where it intersects the three-point line on the opposite side from where you are, put it inbounds where the endline intersects the three-point line on the side where you are. See how that works out for you. That does meet your criteria of putting the ball into play anywhere along the endline. How about the ball goes out almost in the corner and you put it into play on the endline right beside the paint area. I bet that one will go over well too. Both those scenarios are pretty ridiculous IMO, but they meet your criteria and I'm being specific! You might as well stop bull$h1tting and drop the argument; you know good and d@mn well you wouldn't do that crap in a game. You would put the ball into play at approximately the same spot where it went out.

You are right, this is pretty entertaining. If you want to save face, although I know you will probably say you don't care what people on this board think/say, you should probably start using the old smiley faces in this thread big guy! :D

Another day in the life.
 

Aw screw it!!! It really does not matter what I say anyway. Not like it is going to change anything.

Peace