foul on the arm after release
 

Airborne A1 releases the shot and while still airborne B1 gets contact with A1's arm. Foul or no call? is NCAA and HS different? If you answer is it depends on the contact--please explain what do you look for to decide.

Well that is ultimately up to you. But you can call a foul if you deem the contact put the shooter at a disadvantage. That is completely a judgment call.

No.

Once again, this is a judgment call. Did the contact affect the shot or was the contact incidental and did not affect anything. But just because there was some contact does not mean you have a foul. Also if the shooter is trying a circus or off balance shot, I let more go than if a player sets up and follows through and cannot extend their arm.

Peace

I know that an Airborne shooter is still considered to be in the act of shooting until they touch the floor.
I thought NCAA rules were different. No such thing as Airborne shooter. Once the ball is out of the hands, then the player is considered just another player.
Thus A1 drives to the basket. Jumps and releases the try. Crashes into B1 before returning to the floor. Ball goes in the basket.
High school rule: NO BASKET. No Free Throws
NCAA rule: Count the basket. Shoot Free Throws if in the bonus. No?

NCAA Men's is the only level that does not have an airborne shooter rule. That is more related to PC fouls and whether the basket counts. That does not apply to fouling a shooter before they reach the floor. If an airborne player has shot a ball and is fouled, the rules are the same. The NCAA just makes a distinction as to whether that "airborne shooter" can commit a PC foul. If the "airborne shooter" commits a foul, then you can shoot bonus FTs and count the basket.

Peace

One question I always ask myself is did the contact affect the shot. Once the ball is off the shooter's hand, contact to the arm cannot affect the shot. That's not the only criteria I consider, but if the contact is slight and the shot's away, I'll probably pass on it.

Agreed, but I also think we need to consider whether the contact might affect later shots. The harder the contact, and the closer to the release that it happens, the more likely it is to be a foul.

Agreed, I know what you are saying and agree to a point. Contact that prevents complete follow through can affect a shot.

I concur. I called a foul Saturday on 3-pointer when the defender smack the shooters arm right after the release.

I am more likely to call this type of foul on a jump shot than I would for a lay-up or jump hook in the paint.

Not if the shot has already been released.

It sure will. Try it sometime and see, as a shooter when I got hit just after release and was not able to extend my arm fully it would change the shot. I don't pretend to know all the physics of how the shot really works but I can say with absolute confidence that not being able to follow through did something.

If the ball was out of your hands it didn't do anything to change the shot.

btw...I get a nickel every time I post this so here it is again:

The airborne shooter rule is the same under ncaa mens, nfhs and ncaa womans rules. Here is the ncaa version, first art under rule 4:
What is different is that under nfhs and ncaa-w an airborne shooter is still considered to have control of the ball after the shot is released for the purposes of a PC foul.

Only Fred Flintstone can affect the path of the ball after it's been released by adjusting his followthru. The sole point of followthru is to ensure that at the moment of release everything is properly lined up. Once the ball is away, if the arm is bumped, or even stopped entirely, the contact absolutely cannot affect the shot. The ball is away.

I do agree with Bob too, there is more to consider than simply whether the contact affected the shot.

In a BV game last week, we had two good teams -- one with a nice offense built around picks and jump shots. In the middle of the second quarter, a defender raced at a jump shooter and well after the shot was away, slightly jabbed at the shooter's stomach. He didn't seem to touch much and the shot was away. But it was obvious of the intent and the result.
The second time that happened, the jab was not as subtle and it was an easy call. But, we also warned the offending team that it would continue to be called and the tactic stopped.

It sort of reminds me of the way some teams used to have a defender definitely make contact with a free throw shooter after the first made shot of a 1-and-1...and more than once watch it occur after the first of two free throws.

100% agree!!! Not being able to follow thru does affect the shot. Why else would coaches at ALL level preach about a great follow thru. Think of how it affects you in golf. It is similar to why a player will change his follow thru to do a different type of shot in golf.

That's my take as well. Little ticky tacky touch contact that happens after the shot is released I usually let go unless it hinders the shooter's ability to follow through. Harder contact, or anything I think creates an obvious disadvantage for the shooter is going to get a whistle.

WHAAAA?

If the ball is gone from the hand, how does contact with the arm affect the ball? Is there an invisible force field? Is there a real thin thread, like the wires to a torpedo? Is the air current from snapping the wrist necessary to get proper aerodynamcis? Is there an African Swallow carrying the ball?http://personal.stthomas.edu/dbass/M...nHolyGrail.jpg

As I mentioned earlier, you may recall ;) , "Not if the shot has already been released." Once the ball is out of your hand, there is nothing else that you can do it to affect its flight. The path that your arm follows (or doesn't follow) after the release is merely evidence that you used a proper motion before the release. It doesn't actually do anything for the trajectory of the ball.

The reason they teach you to follow thru is because of the effect on the point of release, (or point of impact), not what happens after the ball is gone. Are you saying that you can affect the ball after it is gone, like remote-control? Of course not. If a golfer doesn't think about doing a proper follow-thru, the clubhead speed will actually be slowing down at impact, resulting in a poor shot. The same with a shooter. However, if a shooter is doing all the right things, including attempting to do a proper follow-thru, the ball will leave the hand at the proper speed and trajectory, and it doesn't matter what happens to the hand or arm after that. So if there is contact after the ball leaves the hand, I might be inclined to let it go, where if that same contact occures before the ball leaves the hand, I would call a foul.

That said, I also agree with Bob - if I see something that might affect later shots - perhaps making the shooter flinch to avoid the contact - I would call that even though it happened after the ball has left. It's all judgement.

Yes, that was a good call, not to mention the goaltending afterwards that I caught!

Different play. The BI you called was on a play where the shooter was hit in the head.

The play I'm referring to in this thread was when I was in the Slot opposite table-side and #10 shot a 3 from the corner.

yea it can. look at any sport where you throw/shoot a ball. if you dont follow through, you don't get good results... not following through does effect the shot... ask anyone who plays basketball or baseball. if a pitcher does not follow through after he/she releases the ball, the ball is not going to be as accurate, and sometimes is nowhere near where it was intended to be:D

no it can't. The ball is gone. Nothing you do to change your follow thru after the ball is gone will change where the ball is going

That's because, in order to "not follow through", the pitcher must change something before the ball is released.

What you are describing is reacting to the pressure of the defender coming at you and not the contact after release.

Once the ball is gone, NOTHING you do or have done to you changes the shot.

The change in the shot is the same as someone yelling during your downswing in golf, you tense up and that changes your shot. If someone yells, "You the man, Tiger!" After the shot, you think that affects the shot?

IN the same realm
 

But the contact can affect the players next shot.

Say the jump shooter shoots and gets hit after the shot and no foul is called. The next time that jump shooter starts to shoot and sees the defender coming at him he might change his shot trying to get it off quicker because in his mind if the player hits his arm, no foul is going to be called.

Sure its mental, but that's a big part of the game with the jump shooter. Its all about rhythm and anything that affects it can change the shot.

Thanks
David

That's why we get paid to use judgment.

Whenever someone yells "you the man, Tiger!", either before or after a golf shot, its important to turn to them and say "Here's your sign".

I disagree 100%. Once the ball has completely left your hand, it doesn't matter how much you follow thru, because you are no longer in touch with the ball. You can't correct something you can't touch.

You must be better than me, if you can predict a future disadvantaged situation...our job is to judge the play at hand, not the play 2 minutes from now.

If the contact did not hinder the shot or the landing, and doesn't fall under rough play, it is incidental contact. 2 minutes from now, we should be applying those exact same things.

I will Grant you all this... Contact with the shooters arm preventing follow through does NOT affect the trajectory of the ball, ..... It most certainly does affect the overall shot however.

How can you say those two things in the same breath??!?! :confused: How can contact with the arm after the ball has been released "affect the overall shot"?

I'm seriously not understanding this.

Then you have never had to rely on form and follow through as a shooter. Probably never played before.

We can go back and forth on this for ever. You believe what you want.

No idea why I'm getting into this, but it is a physical impossibility - yes, impossibility - for contact after the ball has been released to have any impact on the ball.

Follow-through is only important in that proper follow-through can only be achieved after proper technique prior to it, and therefore it is taught as part of good form.

Again, it is a physical impossibility for contact after a ball is released to impact the result of the shot.

For those of you who don't like the airborne shooter, what about this scenario? (And it's entirely possible that there is a solution to this problem without Airborne Shooter, but I'm just interested to hear what people have to say.)

A1 pulls up for a jump shot. After releasing the ball, B1 fouls A1 from behind, causing A1's hand to hit the ball again and deflect the already released shot.

Is the just semantics, yes, probably so, but just an interesting take on the discussion IMO.

Thank you. This is what I've been trying to say.

Ah, there it is, the former player calling the game as a ref like they wanted it called as a player...incorrectly.

Follow through is the continuation of proper form.

If you stop your follow through, it will affect your shot, because you changed the way you performed the shot...YOU ALTERED THE MOTION...if you did everything correct through release and then someone else stops your follow through it changes NOTHING!

If I have a perfect golf swing, and I had a full and complete swing back and through the ball and then I hit a root or a branch on my follow through, are you telling me my shot gets messed up?

I hit a baseball, squarely and the bat flies out of my hands on the follow through, is the ball traveling less far?

I was a 4-year varsity player in HS. 2-years as starting point guard. But I also took physics in HS. . .

Aren't you also a Ranger's fan?

Can't be that smart...

But, I do agree with you in this case.

I was a point guard in high school and shooting guard in college. I can tell you that once the ball leaves your hand, the contact DOESN'T change the outcome at all. ~ I was hit in the forearm many times in college and it was rarely called. Guess what, I usually new before I was touched whether or not it was going in or not..........and the contact didn't affect the result.

What does change the shot, is that we shooters will either: rush the shot or flick the wrist rather than smoothly following through to make sure the shot doesn't get blocked. The moral of the story is to take a normal shot, follow through properly and if it gets blocked then you weren't open enough to shoot. If you get fouled, you have a great chance at a 4-point play!

Had a player whine for a foul last week.
I told him I thought the contact on his wrist "was after the ball was gone".
He agreed that it was ex post facto.

But then, he resolutely said it "just seems like it makes a difference".
I agreed ... it does "just seem" that way. :)

Mental toughness required.

I wasn't the point guard cuz the balls were right-handed.
I was the #2 guard cuz that was what my shot looked like.:cool:

Yes former player and OFFICIAL for 25 years. You can't accept the fact that players can also officiate. I never said I call a foul, so don't make things up.

Totally agree with you. Never was in Question.

HUH! You say if I stop my follow through motion myself it will affect the shot. Yet if someone else stops the MOTION it wont. Contradictory statement.

You can believe what you want. I have made my statement and will stand by it.

In Agreement with;

- The fact contacting the arm after the ball has left the hand will not affect trajectory of the ball.
- Not all contact should be called a foul, each situation has to be evaluated on its own.
- Contacting player during follow through changes said follow through.


I.M.O. - notice this is still my opinion.

- Changing the follow thorugh will change the overall shot, I feel that complete follow though is essential to having good form and leads to higher quality shooting. If you cant follow through then you don't have good form.

- Because my opinion is different from yours does not give you the right to make less of it. As I have read in several other posts some tend to attack those who post with an opinion that is different.

My apologies ....

Smoke...Think it through. Think of the jump shot as a stop action film. For a player to stop his follow-through, things must happen to the shot's form BEFORE THE BALL IS RELEASED that will affect the quality of the shot. WHen a player is hit AFTER THE BALL IS RELEASED, nothing has happened up to that point that will affect the shot. Once the ball is gone, what happens to the player is inconsequential to the shot. In fact, if you looked at a good shooter's form comparing two films...one of a shot taken, no foul, and one of a shot taken with contact after the ball is gone, the film would likely be identical.

Have you seen the Kobe follow through when his shot gets blocked???:rolleyes:

Hey c'mon, the verdict was not guilty and both Kobe & his wife have moved on.

Why bring that all up again?

Right. He gave his wife a 5mil diamond ring and they moved on. It's not like he sent her a dozen roses and a box of chocolates.......

You can't have it both ways. If contact after the ball leaves the hand does not change its trajectory, how can it affect the overall shot?

However, if the shooter is anticipating contact or altering the shot to avoid a defender, the shooters normal follow through may be changed, but this is due to events prior to the ball leaving the hand. Contact may or may not occur, but if it occurs after the ball is in flight, the contact itself did NOT change the ball flight.

Whether a shot misses due to contact or good defense is up to the official seeing it happen. If the contact is after the ball is in flight, different judgements apply, but certainly fouls may be called here as well.

WHAT?? I am talking about the game against San Antonio Spurs. He hit Ginobili.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/b...t.1d87fd4.html
ESPN has been showing the video clip all morning.

Oh. My bad, I don't follow the NBA all that much.

I was thinking more about this block of a Kobe shot

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0924041kobea1.html

The follow-through is important because of what you have to do to get to a proper follow-through. The follow-through just shows you that you have used proper form. Once the ball has been released, nothing can affect the shot (other than a Greg Oden-type).

If you played golf, you would know this. You could just stop the golf club after you hit the ball and nothing would change (something you find out when hitting out from behind a tree, LOL). The proper follow-through just indicates that your swing path didn't change.

What part of the follow-through touches the ball?

Ball/hand contact
 

Thought this might fall in the realm of this thread.

Had this scenario the other day during a JV boys’ game: Visiting team down by one with six seconds left in the game and throwing the ball in. After the throw-in, the offensive player drives the baseline and becomes airborne (with momentum carrying him towards the basket) with an attempt to shoot about a 10-footer at the buzzer. Defensive player goes straight up and blocks the shot, ball goes straight back (is this important?). As Lead, I had a great look between them, maybe some slight contact with the shooters hand AFTER contact with the ball, and had no call…game over. Visiting coach doesn’t stomp around or shout at me, just gives me a respectful pleading look like “how about it?”. I just shake my head and hustle off the court.

Wasn’t trying to avoid overtime or give the Home team the call, it simply looked like a no-call to me (partner confirmed as well, unless he was trying to be nice). I’m sure there was no way to make either team happy on such a bang-bang play no matter what the call might have been.

I realize there’s no way to make a judgment without seeing the actual play, however, do you make a call on these types of plays based on ball contact first, player contact second or at the same time, etc.?

Thanks