To count or not to count
 

A1 ends his dribble in the frontcourt and B1 begins closely guarding him. When the count reaches three, A1 tosses the ball straight up in the air (10 feet high) and without moving either foot is able to catch the ball when it comes back down. How does this effect the five-second count?

Should the official:
a. continue to count the entire time
b. suspend the count during the toss, but continue from 3 on the catch
c. start a new five-second count on the catch

a. continue the count.

Hard to believe?
 

The defender didn't make an attmept to get he ball and the offensive player didn't move either feet? What were they both stuck in glue, can't even imagine this happening....:confused:

Please remember what the rule says when answering.
Rule 4, Section 10
CLOSELY GUARDED
A closely guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his/her team's frontcourt, is continuously guarded by any opponent who is within 6 feet of the player who is holding or dribbling the ball. A closely guarded count shall be terminated when the offensive player in control of the ball gets his/her head and shoulders past the defensive player.

Unless, we are treating the toss as a pass. It does not fall in the category of being a interrupted dribble.

Some people seem to think their time is well spent thinking about how the rules as written apply to near-impossible 3rd world plays.

Nevada is among those.

I agree 3rd world play!
 

If this happened the near impossible way Nevadaref said. I am starting a new count since player lost control...

So....if a player tosses the ball from one hand to the other, you'd start a new count too?

Interesting theorem.....

The usual sarcasm..
 

Never said that JR:rolleyes: ... Obviously the player in your scenerio is in control of the ball. The player in Nevadaref's play I can not picture being in control. 10feet up 100 feet up, he ain't got the ball, I ain't counting!:D

The play is near impossile and not planned for in the rules. Good judgement must be applied. In mine I am starting a new count if defense is stupid enough to just stand there and offense is unbelieveably glued to the floor... It won't happen!!!

That is the realistic play that I was heading towards. I put forth the extreme case first to push the limits.

So what do you say about this plays, JR?

A ridiculous limit
 

Not even remotely the same play as tossing it back and forth from left to right hand...:rolleyes: Again back and forth from left to right hand the count is staying on...

Not so fast...

There is a case play that disagrees with you. (Don't have it handy). It says something like this: A1 tosses the ball over B1's head, runs around B1, then catches the ball. The ruling is a travel.

Controlled, deliberate tosses up in the air are considered to be equivalent to holding the ball.

Plays That Never Happen
 

I don't mind discussing plays that happen only once every five or ten years, but I hate discussing plays that will probably never happen.

A few years ago, on the IAABO Refresher Exam, a question appeared that I believe will never, never happen. To paraphrase it:

After a throw-in in by A-1, in A-1's backcourt, the ball, untouched by either team inbounds, is on the floor in the backcourt for more than ten seconds. Since the ten second count doesn't start until Team A controls the ball inbounds, what rule does the official apply? I don't remember the exact wording, but it was a yes or no answer.

My answer: Why doesn't Team B pick up the ball? I don't remember the correct answer. Do any of you?

No the ruling is an illegal dribble. 4.15.4 Sit E

That's a legal play and there is no call to make.

How can the player be in control of the ball when he's not holding the ball? :confused: He hasn't got the ball when he's tossing it from hand to hand, which is exactly the same as when he's tossing it up in the air. The only difference that I can see is that the ball is being tossed horizontally in one case and vertically in another. So.....it appears that you want to penalize "vertical" while letting horizontal get of scot free. Well, imo that just not <b>fair</b>!:mad:

Or are you saying that we should call it by the tossing distance instead? Is tossing it 2 feet sideways from hand-to- hand different than tossing it 10 feet up in the air from hand-to-hand? At what distance then do we stop the count? two feet? Four feet?

Sihgh.....so many questions, so few answers.

Why? Is the player holding or dribbling the ball while being continuously guarded?

Please support your opinion.

Nothing. Like Dan, I refuse to take it seriously.

Of course, please note that I still reserve all rights to piss other people off in this thread by asking similar dumb questions.:D

I don't think I've ever seen a closely guarded player toss the ball from hand to hand, as in your...cough cough...realistic play.

Yabut...... what if he does?:confused:

Too predictable
 

You are using the term holding TOO literally. The player is in control of the ball! Would you not call a travel if he moved his pivot foot... YES it is. A vertical through into the air of ten feet is not the same...

[/QUOTE]He hasn't got the ball when he's tossing it from hand to hand, which is exactly the same as when he's tossing it up in the air. The only difference that I can see is that the ball is being tossed horizontally in one case and vertically in another. So.....it appears that you want to penalize "vertical" while letting horizontal get of scot free. Well, imo that just not <b>fair</b>!:mad: [/QUOTE]

A foot toss in the air is the same, ten feet is not the same. It is all just judgement:rolleyes:


[/QUOTE]Or are you saying that we should call it by the tossing distance instead? Is tossing it 2 feet sideways from hand-to- hand different than tossing it 10 feet up in the air from hand-to-hand? At what distance then do we stop the count? two feet? Four feet?[/QUOTE]

I don't know would have to see it is all judgement..

[/QUOTE]Sihgh.....so many questions, so few answers.[/QUOTE]

Still the same after so many years. Stupid sarcasm that solves nothing.:rolleyes: I have a answer for any quesiton you have and based on your posts the questions will be too ridiculously literal and I truly hope this is just you playing a game and not the way you ref!!!:D

Yes, he is holding it!
 

As I said to JR too literal. A toss back to my left and right hand for player control purposes is holding the ball. If the pivot foot is moved I am calling traveling...

At what height would it be the same I would have to see it, but a 10 ft toss in the air that would never happen while not moving pivot ft and defender not getting, while a 5 sec closly guarded count is on, so it is not a player in control!

This is judgement that is needed to advance:eek:

1. I'm not saying that you are wrong. I just want you to somehow support your stance. Please do that.
2. JR and I are merely applying the NFHS definition of player control given in 4-12-1. "A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds."
3. On your play above, I would NOT call a traveling violation. I would call an illegal dribble per 4.15.4 Sit E, which I referenced already in this thread.

If this is an illegal dribble, throwing the ball up 10 feet in the air is an interrupted dribble, so the count would stop.

What do I win?

Back at ya....
 

1.) It is not in NFHS other than what you say. They use the term holding. You are using it literally and are assuming NFHS is. Holding by Webster is; includes to keep away, to not let escape, to get and keep control of, to be in control of... I argue that maybe NFHS is also using Webster version of holding and in the case of back and forth from left to right hand they are holding the ball.

2.) Maybe maybe not....

3.) Not a big deal since it is still a violation. You could argue how can it be an illegal dribble since he has never pushed the ball to the floor. But I would have not problem with that. I would still say travel as I deem the player in control of the ball.

1) Rule 4-12-1 says that a player is in control <b>only</b> when he's <b>holding</b> or <b>dribbling</b> the ball. Soooooo....if you saying that the player is in control when the ball is in mid-air between his two hands, which act is that player doing? Is he <b>holding</b> the ball while it is in mid-air between the two hands? Or is he <b>dribbling</b> the ball while it's in the air between his two hands. By rule, those are the only two choices. Soooooooo.......which one is your pick?:confused:

2) You never answered the question. What is <b>your</b> judgement as to what distance is required to stop the count? Two feet? Four feet? Five feet and eleventeen inches? Is there any difference <b>by rule</b> also as to whether the distance can be vertical or horizontal? How can we possibly know when to stop the count if we don't know <b>exactly</b> what distance and direction is needed to stop the count?:confused: Inquiring minds need to know! (PS-rules citations to back up your answers would be helpful too. Please.)

If the key to this whole thing is the word "holding" then I submit the following.
What if the player is one of the Globetrotters? He spins the ball on his index finger, and keeps it going......and going. He is not technically "holding" the ball so not only is he not susceptible to the closely guarded count but neither could he be called for traveling. Nevada?

Then..... throwing the ball 2 feet sideways from hand-to-hand would be an interrupted dribble also?:confused:

Refer to Nevadaref response
 

No need to reinvent the wheel. My response to Nevadref answers your questions.... As far as what distance it would vary. It would be judgement. As far as what rule. The same rule you are using. How do you know when NFHS uses the term holding they in all cases are using it as in a players hand. They could easily be using Websters version since ALL plays are not spelled out in the rule book.....

Some answers have just comon sense and as much as I hate to use it are backed by 2.3. "Points not specifically covered" As this is not and you seem to need to hang your hat on something in print, I use that one.

You are the man!!!
 

But he is holding it and it would be traveling. But a great example of a player in control of the ball... I would give you another cookie but it is late and I ate it....;)

Oh, I get it now. It would <b>vary</b>. Some times it would be 2 feet. Some times it would be 4 feet. And some other times it would be 5 feet eleventeen inches. And it's up to your judgement each time as what distance it's gonna be be when you feel like stopping the count or keeping the count going?

Well.......interesting concept:D

I think that I'll stop debating this one with you. I <b>know</b> exactly where you're coming from now. Carry on with Nevada though. Please.

Just a <b>great</b> question, JAR!!

Nevada, a player legally should be able to spin his way from one end of the court to the other, using current rules? Right?

Ok, but now you see why I originally posted the play with A1 tossing the ball 10 feet into the air. Your definition of control must deal with the argument posed by Jurassic.


Did you read the case book play that I referenced? It explicitly says that the dribble is illegal precisely because it did not contact the floor. There is no argument about it. It's right there in black and white. If you "still say travel" you would be correct about calling a violation and giving the ball to the opposing team, but incorrect in your reason for doing so.

4.15.4 SITUATION E: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Legal in (a), but an illegal dribble violation in (b). In (b), since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an illegal dribble. (9-5)

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by just another ref
If the key to this whole thing is the word "holding" then I submit the following.
What if the player is one of the Globetrotters? He spins the ball on his index finger, and keeps it going......and going. He is not technically "holding" the ball so not only is he not susceptible to the closely guarded count but neither could he be called for traveling. Nevada?
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Can a player hold the ball with one hand? Can a player hold the ball with one finger? I say yes to both. (JAR's play = traveling violation)

Now if the player were to balance the ball on his head ... :eek:

Then I'll kick him in the azz and tell him to cut it out.

Uh.......no? Okay, the word is judgment. If we agree (do we?) that the word "holding" is like other terms in the books, not to be interpreted absolutely literally, then we must decide when the player tossing the ball to himself is no longer in control. I humbly submit two possible answers:

1. When the ball is out of the player's reach.

2. You'll know it when you see it.

You should change your username to Justice another ref. :D

Makes as much sense to me as most of the previous answers in this particular thread. Well done!

1) How can it be traveling if the ball never comes to <b>rest</b>?

2) Would it matter if the ball came to rest on the player's head when he was walking down the court? Would that be a different call than if the ball was still spinning on top of his head?

I stand corrected. I read a different case play. Illegal dribble I am with you.:)

Amusing!
 

1.It is at rest spinning on his hand


2.Nope still illegal, as long as it is in control

What level of basketball do you call just for SAG?

More amusement
 

Just for SAG please explain what your definition of holding is and why it must be the correct version?

I think Webster is generally considered an expert of definitions and his definition is somewhat different then the singualr one you seem to adopt....

Just the little players- you know middle school, stuff like that. I really don't do many games, to be honest.

Now, what levels have you attained, if I might also ask?

I am with you there!
 

Those packed middle school gyms get wild! The only problem is being a 2 person crew, but the 6 minute quarters are great!!!:D

Call me silly but I usually try to use the definitions in the rule book rather than the ones in Webster. Novel concept, eh?:)

For "holding", I generally try to follow the directions of rule 4-15-4--i.e.-- the ball comes to <b>rest</b> in one or both hands.

Yeah, one day I'm really hoping to get a high school game though. I've heard that they're even wilder some times.

I agree
 

Tossing from left to right hand the ball does come to rest for a split second in each hand...:p I can't seem to find a length of time it must be at rest in the rule book?:confused:

Lets see the rule book is about a quarter inch thick and Webster is about 3 inches thick.. Probably a little more complete, but who is counting..;)

So you have no problem with a player tapping the ball all the way down the court?

We can only dream!!!!
 

The stir sometimes I hear in the gym next to the middle school gym is unnerving sometimes. All those cars and a Pep band to boot. Too intense for me...:D

Maybe one day. We have to grow up sometimes,, we can't all be Peter Pan.:(

1. Does it have to come to rest to qualify as holding?
2. I don't know and I don't know.
3. What is the correct call to the situation in the original post? I don't know. That's why I posted it. I just emailed it to Chuck for submission as a new case book play.

Nope, not personally. Do you? Would you say that's a violation?:confused:

Yes I would have a violation..
 

If the player tossed the ball left to right hand all the way down the court based on my correction to NevadaRef I would have an illegal dribble. The player would be in control of the ball.

The judgement would be if as an official I felt the player was in control or if they were fumbling. I understand fumbling is nothing but cleary tossing left to right hand, they are in control!

Why would you not? Does the ball come to rest for a split second in either hand? I say yes. The rule book does not give a definition of timeframe the ball must be at rest. If it does please let me know where?:confused:

That was your original statement, not tossing the ball back and forth between the hands going down the court. I replied that I thought it was legal. I just want to be clear? Are you saying that it's a violation if a player tips or taps the ball to himself, whether he does it once or numerous times?

Yes
 

If in my judgment the player has control of the ball...Illegal dribble.. If the ball is in hand for split second it has come to rest for that split second. Even if player uses one hand they can not go down the court tapping to them selves up and down.

Clearly the difference in a fumbling tap, a tap to get ball away from opponent and someone just tipping up and down to themselves would be seen..

It is just not all cut and dry. I am sure you can visualize the play I am referring to and would not allow it either...

Wrong. I would allow it. And in all 3 cases that you referred to above also.

That's just me though.

I can't believe you would play the vertical card!! I never pegged you as a verticalist, but boy, was I wrong!!

Near the end!
 

Since it appears you and I are the opnly ones that care about this post anymore.:) I will try to bring closure... While the original post is near impossible and the two examples I give below are near impossible also, unless they were allowed I just want to make sure I understand what you truly would allow..

1.) Tap left hand to right and running down the court, hands about a foot apart clearly controlling the balls direction...

2.) Tapping the ball vertical 6 inches just in the let hand while running down the court. Clearly controlling the bounce in the hand..

Yes, I would cleary allow those.

That's just me though.

Jurassic, too many posts for me to go through. So let me get this straight. I'm standing in the b/c at the free throw line. A1 throws me the ball and instead of catching it I start tapping it back and forth between each hand and run 65ft towards my basket, where I finally catch the ball with both hands and with both my feet on the ground.

Legal???

Why?
 

PLease try and explain why you are allowing this?

Second if you allow this because they are not holding per how you interpret the holding definition rule then you would also call the below.

1.) A1 in the offensive paint for exactly 3 seconds
2.) An exact 5 second closely guarded or throw in count
3.) An exact 10 second back court count

Can you cite a violation if the ball never comes to rest? Offhand, I can't think of one.

How about tipping a rebound up in the air, and then doing that right down the court too? IamKip says that's a violation too.

Sigh....never an IAABO rules interpreter around when you need one.

Possibly..
 

What is your definition of comes to rest? How long? A rebound that turns into a 6 inch tap running down the court would be a violation. A rebound that is clearly being batted would not. It would be my judgement.

I wonder if the rules committe had any idea there would be some officials out there racking their brain over words like rest and holding -- these behemoths of language have survived thousands of years under scrutiny I am sure they will survine a thousand more. I will try and clarify

rest: (has many definitions so ponder which one best fits your ideology)
–noun 1. the refreshing quiet or repose of sleep: a good night's rest.
2. refreshing ease or inactivity after exertion or labor: to allow an hour for rest.
3. relief or freedom, esp. from anything that wearies, troubles, or disturbs.
4. a period or interval of inactivity, repose, solitude, or tranquillity: to go away for a rest.
5. mental or spiritual calm; tranquillity.
6. the repose of death: eternal rest.
7. cessation or absence of motion: to bring a machine to rest.
8. Music. a. an interval of silence between tones.
b. a mark or sign indicating it.

9. Prosody. a short pause within a line; caesura.
10. a place that provides shelter or lodging for travelers, as an inn.
11. any stopping or resting place: a roadside rest for weary hikers.
12. a piece or thing for something to rest on: a hand rest.
13. a supporting device; support.
14. Billiards, Pool. bridge1 (def. 14).
–verb (used without object) 15. to refresh oneself, as by sleeping, lying down, or relaxing.
16. to relieve weariness by cessation of exertion or labor.
17. to be at ease; have tranquillity or peace.
18. to repose in death.
19. to be quiet or still.
20. to cease from motion, come to rest; stop.
21. to become or remain inactive.
22. to stay as is or remain without further action or notice: to let a matter rest.
23. to lie, sit, lean, or be set: His arm rested on the table.
24. Agriculture. to lie fallow or unworked: to let land rest.
25. to be imposed as a burden or responsibility (usually fol. by on or upon).
26. to rely (usually fol. by on or upon).
27. to be based or founded (usually fol. by on or upon).
28. to be found; belong; reside (often fol. by with): The blame rests with them.
29. to be present; dwell; linger (usually fol. by on or upon): A sunbeam rests upon the altar.
30. to be fixed or directed on something, as the eyes, a gaze, etc.
31. Law. to terminate voluntarily the introduction of evidence in a case.
–verb (used with object) 32. to give rest to; refresh with rest: to rest oneself.
33. to lay or place for rest, ease, or support: to rest one's back against a tree.
34. to direct (as the eyes): to rest one's eyes on someone.
35. to base, or let depend, as on some ground of reliance.
36. to bring to rest; halt; stop.
37. Law. to terminate voluntarily the introduction of evidence on: to rest one's case.

holding: (this is a noun therefore we will only concern ourselves with the noun definitions)
–noun 28. an act of holding fast by a grasp of the hand or by some other physical means; grasp; grip: Take hold. Do you have a hold on the rope?
29. something to hold a thing by, as a handle; something to grasp, esp. for support.
30. something that holds fast or supports something else.
31. an order reserving something: to put a hold on a library book.
32. Finance. a security purchased or recommended for long-term growth.
33. a controlling force or dominating influence: to have a hold on a person.
34. Wrestling. a method of seizing an opponent and keeping him in control: a toe hold.
35. Music. fermata.
36. a pause or delay, as in a continuing series: a hold in the movements of a dance.
37. a prison or prison cell.
38. a receptacle for something: a basket used as a hold for letters.
39. Rocketry. a halt in the prelaunch countdown, either planned or unexpectedly called, to allow correction of one or more faults in the rocket or missile.
40. a fortified place; stronghold.
41. (on telephones with two or more lines) a feature that enables a person to maintain a connection on one line while answering another line.


many choices and combinations here to fulfill all your wildest scenarios.