Is it possible?
 

Is it possible to have time expired (0.0 seconds showing on the clock) and be shooting FTs? The horn did sound.

Seen a play tonight where a kid was fouled and they shot FTs.

Another ref in the gym was explaining to some people that there should be at least 0.1 on the clock because if there was a foul - the foul had to occur prior to the horn sounding and therfore time should be remaining.

I calmly said that this was possible. That if the try had left the shooter's hand and then the foul occured (which is what I saw, the shooter got hacked after the ball was gone) and the shooter was still an airborne shooter which he was that time could have expired.

This is apparently what the officials saw or for whatever reason they allowed the FTs with the lane cleared and that was the end of the quarter.

Correct? or is the other ref correct in saying time has to be put back on the clock?

Continuous Motion principles applies to an airborne shooter who has not yet returned to the floor. So here's a possiblity: The ball left the shooter's hands, time expired while the shot was in flight, the shooter was fouled on the return to the floor.

So, it is possible to have FTs with no time left on the clock, however, I can't speak as to this particular case, because I wasn't the official and didn't see the play.

I understand you did not see the play. Let's forget about the play I described.

True or False.

You can have a foul called and then have the time on the clock be expired?

In that order, no, the statement is false. You cannot have a foul called, and then have time run off the clock. The clock stops on the whistle, and becomes dead as soon as the try ends.

However, in the event that a foul was called, and the timer wasn't able to stop the clock in time, and the officials had no definite knowledge of the time the foul occurred, then I could see going with the FTs, and the period then ending.

That was worded poorly and not what I was trying to say.

True or False:

A foul may be called on B1 after A1 has released the try, but yet to return to the floor and the horn had sounded and time expired.

JOHNNY -- the @#$#@ answer is yes.

That is true (at least it is to the best of my knowledge, perhaps someone else can either support me or let me know if I'm wrong)

Where is NevadaRef when you need him????

Probably off reffing somewhere, while East Coasters such as myself are winding down for the night. Anyways, deecee, from my experience reading the boards, is quite knowledgable.

yes, you can shoot free throws after time expires. A foul can occurr with the clock so near expiration that the official does not see time on the clock before the horn sounds. Of course there are t-foul sitches also that can result in free throws with no time on the clock or 8:00 or 16:00 or 20:00 (whatever the quarter or half begins with)

To answer your question - yes - you can have the FT's with 0:0 on the clock and that's part of 4th quarter. Actually, they will probably get even more FT's because the other coach will probably go APE$HIT and you'll have to whack him - would those be in the 4th qtr or OT????

Typically you would begin the OT with any T that's whistled after the buzzer - but would these be part of the 4th since the quarter really won't end until the FT's are over? (Did I just answer my own question?)

What I am looking for here is if the following scenario is true ...

A1 trys for a goal ... once the ball is gone, the time expires, the horn sounds and just after that B1 hacks A1 (A1 was still an airborne shooter) resulting in the official to blow the whistle to call a foul.

This results in A1 going to the FT line to attempt the FTs with 0.0 on the clock.

Sound legal and proper under the rules?

Unless I'm missing something in your post - yes that is correct.

You have the answer. It can happen. What more do you need?

Drive, jump, shot, time expires, foul, shooter returns to the floor.

As others have said, YES. I actually had it happen in my game tonight. Final seconds of 2nd quarter, player launched a 3 pt attempt with 0.3 on the clock. While player is still airborne defender collides with her and horn sounds simultaneously, my whistle was a split second later. Try was unsuccessful, so fouled player got 3 FT attempts with the lane cleared....then we proceeded with half time break.

The information that Johnny is looking for and maybe not getting is a critical element of officiating: the whistle and the horn do not make the ball dead. The horn only signals that playing time has expired and once a condition that makes the ball dead occurs the game will be over, except of course in OT or FT situations. So to answer the question, the ball is still live despite the horn sounding. In the case of a live ball not only could a foul be called on a player fouling an airborn shooter, but it could be called away from the shooter as well. It would certainly be a gutsy call, and once the horn sounds not to many players are going to be doing anything other than watching the shot, but if A1 releases a shot, the horn sounds, A2 shoves B1 under the basket, you could have a foul.

Also Mountaineer, you did answer your own question. If there are FT's still to be shot then the FT's for the T would be part of the quarter in which they happened, not OT.

An interesting twist on this, however, is what to do if A is up by 4 points and they foul airborn shooter B1 after the horn has sounded; after deciding that the FT's will have no impact on the final score, and thus ruling that the FT's should not be taken, coach from A drops the F-bomb on you? This may be a whole new can of worms that will never happen and could fill an entire thread, but it semi-fits in here? Remember we've already determined that no FT's should be taken on the original foul after the horn when Coach A goes off, so does the T change that ruling? Do we run for the hills as to aviod a possible OT? What to do, what to do?

I have often wondered this myself, and I have always thought that the enforcement philosophy and the rules would dictate the following. The FTs (before the T) would have had no impact on determining the winner, and therefore they are not taken. After the T, however, the FTs have the potential to determine whether or not we have a winner in regulation, or if we must go to overtime to determine a winner. Therefore, we administer the FTs for the shooting foul and the two shots for the T. If any of these shots are missed, the subsequent shots are not taken, as they will not affect the outcome of the game.

I really am not sure if this is right, so some input would be appreciated. Just what has always seemed logical to me.

If you did, you mighta answered it wrong. The FT's for the foul called at the buzzer and the FT's for the coach's "T" will all be shot as part of the fourth quarter. Of course there are two riders attached to that statement---(1) the technical called on the coach must be called before the FT's for the personal foul are over, and (2) the outcome of the game depends on the result of some or all of the FT's.

Btw, if there is 0:00 on the clock and the horn hasn't gone, the period isn't over. The clock will need to be started a tick to finish the quarter. Gonna need another play to start the clock somewhere...throw-in, missed FT..

Rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION 4 and case book play 5.6.2SitF,G&H.

Go back and shoot the 4 Ft's. If one is missed, you quit shooting.

Thank you, JR. I assumed that would be the ruling, but just didn't take the time to look it up and verify.

You'll have to excuse me, I had a game tonight. I really do officitate actual games instead of just answering questions on the forum. :) Rather scary thought, huh? :eek:

Anyway BoomerSooner provided the best answer to your original question. The ball is live during the try and ANY foul during this time, even one not by or on an airborne shooter, should be penalized.

In order to conclusively prove what others have said, I'll point you to 5-6-2 Exception 3 in the rule book: "If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal. The quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed...."

What your fellow official was talking about is the new rule change that lag time has been eliminated. Therefore, you are allowed to put the exact time back on the clock, when the whistle sounded for the foul, if warranted and if you have definite knowledge. However, this does NOT mean that at least 0.1 MUST be on the clock whenever a foul occurs, as that official stated. We have shown that is untrue.

Note that in NFHS, the correct time to put back on the clock is when the whistle is sounded because that is the signal that the timer uses to stop the clock. However, in an NCAA game, if the officials used the courtside monitor, the correct time to put back would be when the actual contact occurred. In this situation, it does not matter, under NCAA rules, when the whistle was blown.

I wanted to point this out as well. You must have definite knowledge of what should be on the clock. Some people assume that since the whistle came slightly before the horn, that you MUST put some time up, since the clock should have stopped. But even though the clock should have stopped on the whistle, you also have to SEE what is on the clock before it expires in order to put that time back up.

I'm glad Nevada answered this question. I think Johnny would have kept asking the question until Nevada gave his ruling. :D

How was I wrong - we said the same thing. The 4th quarter would end when the ensuing FT's were over . . . the horn going off, I agree with you on btw.

Remember, the ball doesn't become dead on the horn if a shot is in the air. A1 is an airborne shooter, so yes, you can have a foul occur after the horn in this situation as long as the shot is released before the horn.