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-   -   Held Ball or Foul? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/31244-held-ball-foul.html)

djskinn Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by imagomer
WOW! As a coach who has learned that there is no "over the back" and that a taller player MAY reach over a shorter player for a rebound, so long as there is no advantageous contact, I would freak out (and be ignored by most officials here) if you called my player for her fifth (hypothetically) because a girl whom she had not contacted fell down while they both had hold of the ball. My girl did not initiate contact to gain an advantage; the faller lost her balance to give up the advantage.

No "over the back" was called and this was not a fifth foul situation. B2's pulling of the ball forced A2 off balance and backwards.

djskinn Fri Jan 26, 2007 01:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef
Did the player in your game wrap his arms around the opponent? No.

Then how is this play similiar?

You can't have a foul without contact. In your play, there is no contact between A2 and B2.

If you are physically capable of wrapping your arms around a player without contact due to size (larger vs. smaller player), are you still calling a held ball. Seems to me that the defensive player has created a major disadvantage and could do so by not initially creating any contact whatsoever.

In my situation, and at that moment, it appeared to me that this was an instance of advantage/disadvantage.

JRutledge Fri Jan 26, 2007 01:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by djskinn
Seems to me that their is some advantage gained by a defensive player for reaching from behind, whether it be over the head or from behind the back. If both players went up together for a rebound and each had an equal opportunity to rebound, I would have nothing.

Good judgment or not, I still am not fully convinced a held ball is the absolute and only call.

You are missing the point. The ball was grabbed before there was any contact.

Are you telling me that if the players were facing each other and you have a clear held ball and because of the force of the players tugging on the ball they fall to the floor you have to have a foul?

If that is what you are saying that is horrible judgment. The held ball took place first. Also just wrapping your arms around another player is not automatically a foul either.

You do not have to agree with that, but remember you said there was no contact and now you are calling a foul. Not only is that bad judgment that is not using the rules the way they are supposed to be used.

Peace

djskinn Fri Jan 26, 2007 01:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
djskinn, what would be the basis of calling a foul in this situation? What contact has occurred that you would consider a foul? Are you saying just b/c B2 is stronger than A2, B2 gets penalized with a foul?

I need to understand your thinking in this situation. I have one guy who comes to me for advice on plays. Whenever he asks my opinion I always make him explain his stance first. A lot of times he'll realize he's wrong or right just by listening to his own explanation.

I don't think it is a question of one player being physically stronger than another. All I am trying to point out, is that in this particular situation, A2 was put at a disadvantage because he was pulled off balance and forced to the floor from behind.

I am just not totally sold that a held ball is the absolute best call and was curious if advantage/disadvantage could and/or should be taken into account.

Dan_ref Fri Jan 26, 2007 01:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by djskinn
I don't think it is a question of one player being physically stronger than another. All I am trying to point out, is that in this particular situation, A2 was put at a disadvantage because he was pulled off balance and forced to the floor from behind.

I am just not totally sold that a held ball is the absolute best call and was curious if advantage/disadvantage could and/or should be taken into account.

The issue is not advantage or disadvantage. Much of life (including sports) is about gaining an advantage or putting someone else at a disadvantage.

The issue is did the player gain an illegal advantage. The way you wrote your post I would say no.

Camron Rust Fri Jan 26, 2007 01:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by djskinn
I don't think it is a question of one player being physically stronger than another. All I am trying to point out, is that in this particular situation, A2 was put at a disadvantage because he was pulled off balance and forced to the floor from behind.

I am just not totally sold that a held ball is the absolute best call and was curious if advantage/disadvantage could and/or should be taken into account.

If there is no person to person contact, nothing you just said matters. The defense gets and advantage when they steal a pass....doesn't make it a foul.

If a player is athletic enough to go over another player's head, get the ball, and pull it back....all without contacting the player's body....that player deserves the rebound. Period. If pulling the ball causes the other player to fall, that it too bad. It is either a held ball or NOTHING (depending on how easily the player from behind was able to strip the ball).

JRutledge Fri Jan 26, 2007 01:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by djskinn
I am just not totally sold that a held ball is the absolute best call and was curious if advantage/disadvantage could and/or should be taken into account.

Djskinn,

You came here and asked a question. So far to a man (or woman, sorry Juulie you have not posted yet) everyone has told you very explicitly this is not a foul. All I know is you cannot call a foul without some contact. And contact can be severe and not be a foul if you simply read the rulebook. Now if you are convinced that everyone here is wrong that is your right to do so. But I will tell you that making calls like this are the reason why a lot of officials never get better opportunities (moving up, better games, better conferences, and playoffs). All you have done is tell us what happen and debate the answer.

Peace

Rich Fri Jan 26, 2007 01:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by djskinn
Seems to me that their is some advantage gained by a defensive player for reaching from behind, whether it be over the head or from behind the back. If both players went up together for a rebound and each had an equal opportunity to rebound, I would have nothing.

Good judgment or not, I still am not fully convinced a held ball is the absolute and only call.

So, you're saying that you are penalizing a person for being tall or being able to jump?

djskinn Fri Jan 26, 2007 01:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
Djskinn,

You came here and asked a question. So far to a man (or woman, sorry Juulie you have not posted yet) everyone has told you very explicitly this is not a foul. All I know is you cannot call a foul without some contact. And contact can be severe and not be a foul if you simply read the rulebook. Now if you are convinced that everyone here is wrong that is your right to do so. But I will tell you that making calls like this are the reason why a lot of officials never get better opportunities (moving up, better games, better conferences, and playoffs). All you have done is tell us what happen and debate the answer.

Peace

Easy JR and everyone else. I'm just not afraid to ask questions. If you don't like my questions don't respond. Just wanted to be convinced. Asked other officials face-to-face and have received varying responses.

This board seems clearly convinced a held ball is simply and only a held ball, regardless of the situation, as long as there is no contact. I've got no problem with this boards interpretation and following of the good old rules book. So "peace" to you my friend.

SmokeEater Fri Jan 26, 2007 01:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by djskinn
This board seems clearly convinced a held ball is simply and only a held ball, regardless of the situation, as long as there is no contact. I've got no problem with this boards interpretation and following of the good old rules book. So "peace" to you my friend.

Not "ONLY" a held ball, it could be a "NO CALL" depending on how easily the ball can be stolen away.

djskinn Fri Jan 26, 2007 01:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeEater
Not "ONLY" a held ball, it could be a "NO CALL" depending on how easily the ball can be stolen away.

Yes, I could see that potentially happening. Would look really ugly, but could see an official letting them play through.

JRutledge Fri Jan 26, 2007 01:34pm

Huh?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by djskinn
Easy JR and everyone else. I'm just not afraid to ask questions. If you don't like my questions don't respond. Just wanted to be convinced. Asked other officials face-to-face and have received varying responses.

This board seems clearly convinced a held ball is simply and only a held ball, regardless of the situation, as long as there is no contact. I've got no problem with this boards interpretation and following of the good old rules book. So "peace" to you my friend.

You asked an either/or question and you have responded to defend your position to EVERYONE!!! I think you should not have asked the question if you want to debate the issue with EVERYONE!!! And we answered the question based on YOUR INFORMATION!!!

Peace

djskinn Fri Jan 26, 2007 01:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
You asked an either/or question and you have responded to defend your position to EVERYONE!!! I think you should not have asked the question if you want to debate the issue with EVERYONE!!! And we answered the question based on YOUR INFORMATION!!!

Peace

JR, this is forum, not just a few officials that choose to answer. Take it easy, not everyone is always going to agree with your particular assessment or answer or anyone else’s for that matter.

When I see posters that have provided thousands of comments, I think these folks probably have something intelligent to add to my favorite avocation.

Either way, I have always respected this board’s comments and opinions and will continue to frequent and pose questions for anyone to respond.

JRutledge Fri Jan 26, 2007 02:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by djskinn
JR, this is forum, not just a few officials that choose to answer. Take it easy, not everyone is always going to agree with your particular assessment or answer or anyone else’s for that matter.

When I see posters that have provided thousands of comments, I think these folks probably have something intelligent to add to my favorite avocation.

Either way, I have always respected this board’s comments and opinions and will continue to frequent and pose questions for anyone to respond.

I do not expect everyone to agree. But you asked a question and you have defended your position as if you already had your mind made up. Now I find that odd if you are asking for opinions in the first place. Not only do people disagree with you, they gave you rule references to back it up. Then you are coming with "in my mind it just does not seem right" BS. This is not about respecting the board or not respecting the board. This is about why are you asking a question and taking everyone's position on with your own interpretation if you did not want to hear what other officials thought? Even the title of this thread suggests you have to have one or the other. I just find it silly that you said there was no contact on a held ball, but there has to be a foul. I know you are smarter than that.

Peace

Raymond Fri Jan 26, 2007 02:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by djskinn
I don't think it is a question of one player being physically stronger than another. All I am trying to point out, is that in this particular situation, A2 was put at a disadvantage because he was pulled off balance and forced to the floor from behind.

I am just not totally sold that a held ball is the absolute best call and was curious if advantage/disadvantage could and/or should be taken into account.

dj, you didn't answer my question. On what basis do you call a foul. What mechanic are you going to use and what foul call are you going to verbalize?

What does advantage/disadvantage have to do with it if there is not any contact? How about this, 150lb A1 goes up for a shot, 260lb B1 blocks the shot before A1 releases the ball. The force of B1 blocking the shot forces A1 to fall to the floor and bang his head. Do you call a foul on B1 even though there was no contact at all?


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