From the NCAA rule book, Rule 5, Section 7, Article 2:

A.R. 4. With the score tied near the expiration of time in the second half (a) shooter A1 is fouled in the act of shooting just before time expires or (b) shooter A1 is fouled in the act of shooting after time expires.
R U L I N G : (a) When the foul occurs before the ball becomes dead and the period has ended, A1 shall shoot the two free throws. When one free throw is successful, the game is over. If one free throw is not successful, the game continues with an extra period(s). (b) When the foul occurs after the second half has clearly ended, the extra period shall begin with the free throws.

My question is about part (b). How can you have a foul in the act of shooting after the second half has ended? The half doesn't end until the try is over!

Could someone explain exactly what is meant here?

Thanks!

NF, although I think NCAA will be the same.
 

When the try ends and when the act of shooting ends have nothing to do with each other. The act of shooting ends when an airborne shooter returns to the floor. The half ends when the try is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

In the play, they're saying that the try and the half ended prior to the airborne shooter returning to the floor. Unlikely but possible. Let's say A1 dunks the ball at the buzzer. As he returns to the floor, he is blocked by B1 who has moved underneath him, while he is in the air. That is what situation B is describing.

I am not sure that the ruling in (b) is correct, which is not suprising because sometimes the rulings are made without looking at all of the rules that apply to the particular play.

Lets look at (b) all by itself.

A1 goes airborne (becomes an airborne player) and then releases a try for goal (becomes an airborne shooter) before time expires. A1 is an airborne shooter until he/she touches the court. The clock exprires and then the ball goes throw the basket, A1 is still airborne and is then fouled by B1.

Score the basket, two points for Team A (and A1). Personal foul by B1 against a player in the act of shooting, A1 is awarded one free throw.

NCAA R4-S1-A2: An airborne shooter is in the act of shooting.

A.R.1: A1 is in the air on a jump shot in the lane. A1
releases the ball on a try and is fouled by B1, who has
jumped in an unsuccessful attempt to block the shot.
A1's try is: (a) successful; or (b) unsuccessful.
RULIING: A1 shall be an airborne shooter when the ball
is released until he/she returns with one foot touching
the floor. An airborne shooter shall be in the act of
shooting. B1 has fouled A1 in the act of shooting. A1
shall be awarded one free throw in (a), and two in (b).

NCAA R5-S7-A2c: When a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the official timer cannot stop the clock before time expires or when the foul occurs after time expires but while the ball is in flight during a try. The period shall end when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed.

In Play (b) above, the only thing that has happened is that playing time has expired, the second half has not ended until all related activity has been completed. Yes, R5-S7-A2c talks about the ball being in flight, but R4-S1-A2 prevails in this play.

If the score is tied and A1 makes his/her free throw, the game is over; or if A1 misses his/her free throw the game goes to overtime. If Team A is down by one point, and A1 makes his/her free throw, the game goes to overtime; or if A1 misses his/her free throw the game is over. If the outcome of the game will not change whether A1 makes his/her free throw or not, the free throw is not shot and the game is over.

I also forgot one other NCAA rule reference:

R5-S7-A3: No penalty or part of a penalty shall carry over from one half or extra period.

I have no idea what the NCAA ruling would be. But I'm confident that I'm correct under NF rules. 5-6-3b explains that a the foul would be considered part of the 4th qtr. if the try is still in flight. In my example, the try has ended, the 4th qtr. has ended, and the foul comes afterwards. 5.6.3B is a similiar play. The OT is started with FTs.

Under both NFHS and NCAA rules the airborne shooter definition prevails. While the try for goal and act of shooting starts at the same time and the act of shooting ends with the release of the ball and the try ends when the shot is either made or is missed (I know about all of the exceptions). The airborne shooter definition extends the time of the act of shooting to when the shooter comes back down and touches the court, meaning the try could have ended by definition, but the act of shooting has not ended. This means that the foul against the shooter is part of the fourth quarter (NFHS), second half (NCAA), or overtime period (NFHS/NCAA).

In Play (b), A1's free throws are part of the second half.

You do mean the *current* overtime period, ie the foul
would *not* carry over. Right?

Correct.

I can see where the NCAA is coming from (with exception of airborne shooter as Mark has so eloquently laid out)
Look carefully at the wording play A happens during the 4th quarter, Play B happens after the 4th quarter has ended. So I can see why they are saying shoot FT's to start the oT since the foul happened after the 4th quarter ended. However unless the foul was pretty rough or something like that I dont think most refs would ever call that. My question is that since this foul occurs after the second half has clearly ended, and based on the wording the ball is dead, this would not be just two FT's it would be Two FT's and the ball because generally most fouls that occur in a dead ball period are T's...

You're wrong Mark and you haven't cited anything that that proves the NCAA Rulebook play incorrect. When the try ends has nothing to due with when the act of shooting ends. When the try ends, the half ends. There's absolutely nothing in the rulebook that says the act of shooting extends the period. If that were true, a airborne player who was in the act of shooting could release the ball after the buzzer and it would count. That's why you were unable to cite a rule that states that the act of shooting extends the period.

Kelvin, the shooter in b is an airborne shooter. You cannot ignore contact on an airborne shooter, even if the ball is dead when the foul occurs.

Ah, but an airborne player is not the same as an
airborne shooter. The airborne shooter is granted
special status under both sets of rules that an airborne
player does not have.

FWIW, I'm siding with Mark on this, in fact I had envisioned
this play as relatng to obvious after the shot dead ball
fouls (T's), as Kelvin mentions above. It's not consistent
with the play scenario I know but I can't see any other
way to explain it.

Okay, I can buy that an airborne player is not the same as an airborne shooter. That was a quick comparison on my part. But please cite the rule for me that states that the period is extended until the airborne shooter returns to the floor. I bet you can't because it doesn't exist. The period ends when the try ends, if time has expired. If the foul on the airborne shooter occurs after the end of the period, then we start the next period with FTs. It's no different than if a technical foul had been called at the exact same time. The foul on the ABS is not ignored.

It's clear as a bell, it's even right there in the NCAA rule book. But you guys are saying the rule book is wrong.

Hmmm, you may have something here. It seems the rules do
differentiate the end of a try and the act of
shooting related to the airborne shooter. I'm gonna
think about this for a little while & get back to you.

Did A1's act of shooting and try start during the second half? YES.

A1's act of shooting and try are part of the second half. A1 was fouled in the act of the shooting. The penalty for the foul in the act of shooting is part of the second half.
Both the NFHS and NCAA (see my second posting on the play) state that: "No penalty or part of a penalty shall carry over from one half or extra period."

Lets change Play (b) to make the contact between A1 and B1 charging by A1. No before anybody goes nuts, let me explain that under NCAA Men's Rules, this contact would be incidental unless it was intentional or flagrant. But under NFHS/NCAA Women's this would be a player control foul by A1 even if the contact was after the ball had become dead (meaning successful field goal attempt) and the goal would be disallowed and A1 would be charged with a player control foul.

The fact is that A1 was fouled in the act of shooting and the fouls that are the penalty for that foul are part of the second half. There is no way that the free throws can be part of the overtime period.

I think that if you would take this question to Ed Bilik, Barb Jacobs, and Mary Struckhoff, they will agree with me, because it would be illogical (not to say against the rules) for the penalty for a foul committed in the second to be part of the ensueing overtime period.

Just look at Play (b), has the second half clearly ended if A1 is still airborne and while still airborne is then fouled by B1.

"No penalty or part of a penalty shall carry over from one half or extra period."

Mark, this is what I was thinking too. But a close
reading of the rules might indicate differently. As Tony
points out there's nothing in there to extend the period
merely because there's a shooter. We only extend
the period when there's a try, as far as I can
see. I'm still digging in the book, I made some inquiries
of my own as well. As for your bringing in the airborne
shooter rule wrt PC, I don't think it's relevant simply
because the try and the act of shooting are independent to
an extent. In fact in the women's rules and NFHS the
PC foul is extended to include the airborne shooter.

Anyway, it's a great discussion! I suspect Lotto's
question might not have been entirely innocent! ;)

I, too, agree with Mark. Any foul involving an airborne shooter is part of the quarter in which the shot is taken. The effect of the airborne shooter rule is to extend the time that fouls on or against the airborne shooter can occur. While the rule doesn't explicitly spell it out, I beleive it to be the intent.

A1 dunks at the buzzer and is fouled hard before returning to the floor...A1 will be shooting FTs now. Fouls involving an airborne shooter are effectively treated as if they occured before the shot was released.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Oct 31st, 2001 at 04:34 PM]

First in response to BktBallRef... there is no place in the original question/ruling about the airborne shooter. The airborne shooter creates an issue that you wonder if the NCAA did not overlook. It would not be the first time the ruling body messed up on an interpretation.

Second I agree with Mark that penalties dont carry over, but the ruling stated... (b) When the foul occurs after the second half has clearly ended, the extra period shall begin with the free throws. So we have a foul after the period has ended, I think the ruling may be kinda correct. If a foul occurs after the period has ended, I can see why they would say administer it in OT but Shouldn't this contact be ignored... if it's not ignored it's a dead ball foul, and would be a T. I'm sorry but there are too many problems with this ruling looking at it on the face

Yeah, OK, I buy that but show me where in the rule book
it says that. While I agree that this might be the intent,
I can show you where it explicitly says the period ends
when the try ends and the try ends when the ball goes in.
I can't find where it says to extend the period until the
airborne shooter hits the floor. Can you?

Here's the play from the original post.
<i>With the score tied near the expiration of time in the second half (a) shooter A1 is fouled in the act of shooting just before time expires or <B>(b) shooter A1 is fouled in the act of shooting after time expires.</B>
R U L I N G : (a) When the foul occurs before the ball becomes dead and the period has ended, A1 shall shoot the two free throws. When one free throw is successful, the game is over. If one free throw is not successful, the game continues with an extra period(s). <b>(b) When the foul occurs after the second half has clearly ended, the extra period shall begin with the free throws.</B> </I>


Now, look at 4-40-1
The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.

There is no other way for the foul to occur unless the player is an airborne shooter. If a player who is standing on the floor and has released the shot is no longer in the act of shooting. For the player to be fouled in the act of shooting after time has expired, he has to be an airborne shooter who has not returned to the floor..

So yes, the airborne shooter is in the original question/ruling.

************************************************** ***
With regards to Mark and Cameron, I will be glad to accept your interpretation if you can show me why the act of shooting extends the period. Now, as you said Mark, I'm not saying your response is illogical. But it is not addressed in the rules that the act of shooting extends the period. In fact, the play that you say is wrong is in the NCAA rule book. The play sates that the foul occurs after the period ends and the FTS are part of the next period. If I'm wrong, then the rule book is wrong and needs to be corrected.

I will disagree. You can be in the act of shooting and not be an airborne shooter. As you quote ...The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.

The rule only states it includes airborne shooter. You can be in the act of shooting and not be airborne.
Long before there was the airborne shooter rule, there was the act of shooting.

By your logic then you can never be in the act of shooting when you are standing flat-footed on the ground. The act of shooting may be shorter than someone with a good hang-time may be in the act of shooting longer, but a player laying on the ground could be in the act of shooting. I would also suggest that based on that then a person who is moving toward the basket and started up towards the basket is not an airborne shooter, yet continuous mtion applies and he has started the try, yet the shooter is not airborne. The airborne shooter definition and accompanying stuff was but in several years ago but the act of shooting rule has not changed.

Kelvin, none of what you posted has anything to do with (b). Look at it:

With the score tied near the expiration of time in the second half (b) shooter A1 is fouled in the act of shooting after time expires.

Time has expired.
The foul occurs after time has expired.
The player is in the act of shooting.
If the player's feet are on the floor and he's in the act of shooting, then the ball has not left his hand, since the act of shooting ends when the ball is clearly in flight.
If the ball has not left his hand, then there is no shot because time has expired.
Therefore, the only way that the player in (b) can be in the act of shooting is if he is an airborne shooter and has not returned to the floor yet.
Otherwise, the foul would be ignore, just as you posted earlier, because the ball would be dead.

The shooter in (b) is airborne. I don't know how else to explain it to you. If you still don't see it, perhaps you can tell me where the player is, where the ball is and how the player can be fouled when the ball is dead and still be in the act of shooting.

Don't try. It's not possible.

Go figure... I can actually see a non airborne shooter in the act of shooting heres an extract from the original...(b) shooter A1 is fouled in the act of shooting after time expires. and the answer...b) When the foul occurs after the second half has clearly ended, the extra period shall begin with the free throws.

The ruling on A was pretty easy since he was fouled before time expired, then with a "lag" or something the buzzer goes off so time has expired and soot two free throws...

Now for b...
It clearly says act of shooting after time expires. Here's where I have a fundamental issue with the ruling and question but I am picking apart their stuff.

So he is in the act of shooting, the ball is still in his hands, in the act, and he gets fouled after the horn has gone off...( he is some continuous motion to the basket or clearly shooting flat footed or a turn around hook where both feet never leave the floor etc...., but buzzer then foul, and ball is not away.)

It appears the NCAA is saying that since the person was in the act of shooting, the foul would be called even though the ball is dead. He was in the act so it has to be called but it is not a dead ball foul (T) because the act started before the ball became dead and it cant be ignored since he was in the act at the time the second half ended. The horn sounded/time expired with game tied, the foul then happens after the half so the FT's are administered to start OT.

Try explaining any of this the a coach why he shouldnt be shhoting to win the game, or converesely explain to the other coach why it was a foul. This play is a conumdrum that if it ever happened no one would be happy....

I think the foul that occurs after the horn it should be ignore altogether unless flagrant or intentional but who I am?

So I contend you can be in the act there and not be airborne but like you said its a great dscussion to have us think about definitions!!!

Hmmm, take a look at 6-6, Ball Does Not Become Dead,
Art 1 & 2. Says in black in white the ball must
be in flight for the ball to remain live on a foul at the
end of a period. This is a good one, aint it! ;)