traveling or pushing??
 

Sorry guys I have a lot of questions.

Player A gains possession of a shot ball on the rebound. Player B is trying to do the same, and in the proccess runs into Player A and causes her to fall down. Again I was taught that this is a foul. although in the game, the Ref called it traveling. He defended himself by using the old addage, it's a grey area and open for interpretation. Reading from other posts, I argue that contact caused the other player to fall therefore there isn't any grey area, it would be either charging or pushing. Am I right??

Sounds like it to me. Player B displaced player A, thus causing an advantage and causing player A to fall down. Sounds like a foul to me.

I have a push on B. He/she clearly gained an advantage by displacing player A

To me timing is everything on a play like this. Were they both in contact withthe ball at the same time as the contact occurred. In other words was it a Bang, Bang play. Could the official have seen the contact as incidental when no one had possesion yet? Too many factors to consider without being there to see the play. I won't make a judgement on this one.

In general, I agree with the answers provided above (foul). However, if the timing is right....A and B get to the ball at the same time and bump each other from equally advantageous positions...I've got no foul....but a travel. While the contact may have caused the other to fall, the contact would not be illegal. Tough luck for the one that falls.

I had this EXACT call (bit at midcourt) in a 2 point game with <10 seconds left a few years ago....both players converged at the ball at nearly full speed. Both got their hands on the ball at the same time. They met belly-to-belly. One pulled a little harder and came away with the ball but also fell down. Travel.

Provided that what you "saw" is what happened, I've got a push on B.

However, I'm always cautious on these because I don't know what the Ref saw, where the Ref was, where you were......

I've had a number of instances where a coach, fan or player, from his angle "saw" contact when in fact there was at least a foot of space between the players. The most common occurs on a fast break when the defender catches up to the shooter and takes a swipe, missing everything, but the shooter still blows the basket. From the bench, this can look very much like contact was made. The coach's brain connects the swipe to the miss and concludes contact.

WEll
 

If as you say the contact could have been incidental, than it would have been a non-call. PLayer A though gained possession about 7 feet prior to player B. PLayer B going for the Rebound too, saw that she didn't get it and than Kept her momentum in order to guard PLayer A. thus the contact and knock down. I see what you are saying, but had it been incidental, than no call should have been made. Rather the Ref saw fit to call it traveling. Which in any stretch of the imagination, could have only been by her falling down without any contact or tripping. Since contact occured, I really don't see his call being correct.

When you explain it this way, I would have to agree that it most likely "could have" been a push or block.

Wrong. If there's incidental contact and then the player travels, it's still traveling. You don't ignore the violation just because there was incidental contact.

Ok, 84garyclark, what are asking about now is not a rule, but a judgement call by an official. To whom did he defend his call? Where were you taught that this is a foul? Can you give us a little background as to your association to the game? New official, coach, scorekeeper, parent, fan? Just curious.

ok
 

I am a coach, trying to learn all the time. If it is incidental contact, than how could it be traveling. If the contact at the point causes the other player to fall than that isn't incidental. I see your point, about the two players in your game. But in this one. My player had gaind possession of the ball stopped, and the other player ran into her with her hands striaght up attempting to defend her. The contact caused her to lose balance and fall to her butt. again I see your point, but if the contact casues you to go to the ground I don't see how that can be incidental.
You have to understand, I coach in a middle school level. Refs aren't the best. Nor are they very knowledgable. Most Times I am showing them the rule book. Oft times when shown their error, they won't admit it. All I ever want from Refs is a fair game. Or as fair as you can get with humans invovled. Consistancy! Too many times, our refs allow WWF in the first period than call everything in the 2nd and than get even pickier in the 3rd. My mindset is that at that level of skill and age, you have to ref them different. Let them play, you may let minor things go you normally wouldn't otherwise, otherwise you would be there all day shooting freethrows. You call the major violations or ones in which it swings the advantage to your team. But I ramble....sorry. I will get off my soapbox now.

Coach,

You might want to re-read incidental contact (4-27). Also, these officials are learning and so are your players. Cut them some slack, it isn't the end of the world if they mess up, because we've all been in those shoes. All officials start at these levels and too many times Jr. High coaches run them straight out the door because they aren't willing to let them learn, they expect them to be perfect as soon as they step on the court.

Not <b>during</b> the game, I hope. If you have, you're lucky you haven't been shown the parking lot.

Incidental contact equals no foul. It is that simple. Anything that happens as a result of the incidental contact still applies. So if a player bounces off a player in a legal way, then you can have a travel call. It really is that simple.


All you are talking about is judgment. All contact is not illegal or a foul.

As you stated you are a middle school level coach. On that description alone you are not getting D1 and NBA officials that have decades of games under their belts working those games. Also as an official we are not seeing the most talented and competent players and coaches either. Middle school is what it is. If you want a major improvement in your officials, you either are going to have to pay higher (which has been done in my area) than the average HS game or assignment and you will have to insist on trying to get some more experienced officials. The problem with the latter is officials that have been around do not want to work those games if for no other reason they will have to deal with coaches and fans that are unreasonable like it seems you are being here.

I do sympathize with you on some level, but your expectations have to be in check. I know when I work these games as a veteran, I always know I am very likely going to work with someone that is not capable to work the games I do on a regular basis. It comes with the territory and it is not like the players make these games easy to call. Often the players are falling over their own feet and coaches like you want a call just because someone hit the floor. Relax, take a deep breathe and have fun. It sounds like you are more concerned with calls that trying to let the players know that they can have fun in this game.

Peace

Congrats. Most of us sincerely wish more coaches would take this approach. I hope you find this forum a valuable resource, and don't be afraid to share a coach's perspective on things.
The severity of the contact has nothing to do with whether the contact is incidental or not. From 4-27: "ART. 2 . . . Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe."

With that as background we can usefully discuss whether the contact was incidental or not. IMO, as you have described it, this scenario is not incidental contact. But, as I mentioned earlier, that determination has nothing to do with whether your girl got knocked on her can.
Yep. True story. That's where beginning refs go to learn their skills. The real irony is that these games are often so bad and so quirky that they really require a more seasoned official to get them right. But hey, we all have to start somewhere (including players and coaches)I can't imagine any scenario where this is a good approach, Coach. How would you react if one of your players pulled out a coaching book during a game and told you that you were running your press wrong? Would you be inclined to say, "Thanks, Billy. I didn't realize I was messing that one up."? Heck no. During the game you've got a role to play and it involves you being the one in charge of your team, not vice versa. You don't want to lose your credibility or authority over your players like that. And you don't really have time to stop and rethink parts of your game right then. You may adjust later based on receiving new information, but in the moment you're going to do what you've been doing. Same story with officials. BTW, some officials would consider that a very serious attempt to show them up.

Yep. It's all part of learning to officiate. It ain't always pretty. The up side is that eventually some of them will get it and become better officials. Of course, then they'll move on to higher level games. ;)

While I agree with you in principle, the details are notoriously difficult to agree on. Your idea of let them play may be my idea of sanctioned mugging. Or vice versa. So the reality is that you and your team need to learn to adjust to how the officials are calling the game. I feel your pain about intra-game consistency, but what else can you do?

This one gets my nomination for post of the week!!

My mother will be soooo proud! :D

thanks
 

While I agree with much of what you guys have said, I must take issue with some of it. The point made that showing the ref rules wasn't a good idea by using the example of my own team player pointing out something to me, isn't a valid example. First, I am older and more knowledgable than a 13 year old player.
If a player pointed out a rule, that I was wrong on and he/she used a rule book to show me I would be open to see it and admit, if I was wrong to my lack of knowledge on my part. I think it is arrogance, which some, not all refs have, to think that every call they make, at that level is true and by the book. I've had at times one ref tell the other ref " dude, you know he's right, you got the call wrong." and still they refuse to admit they were wrong.
The other issue I have is what we should expect from refs at that level. Having players adjust who are 11-13 especially girls is asking way too much. I laughed when you stated the sactioned mugging, which is kinda my point. Obvisously you can't call every little thing, and that is not what I am asking for.
I am asking that since those players at that level aren't at a maturity of talent yet, need to be cut some slack on certain aspects of the game. Like traveling, picking up a pivit foot slightly to get a pass off, or a minor double dribble. Like I said if you called all of those strickly, the game would last 3 hours.
My final point is this. It's not that I go out and say "hey look, you were wrong" to the ref and fly the rule book in his face. I will usually go to them after the game and ask them what was their reasoning for certain calls, and why they called it that way. If I get an answer that contradicts the rules or isn't a call that is flat out wrong based on the rules, the next time I see them I use the rule book as a guide. Remeber what you said last week, well I researched it and this is what I found, I than show them the rule and even if they read it, they won't admit to being wrong. I understand you are human, and make mistakes, just like me, but to think that as a ref you are the be all end all to knowledge of rules is ignorant. Just like thinking I, as a coach am the same. I am not. I try to keep up as well with the rules so as not to make an *** of myself to a ref. When I am chastised by a ref and go home and reseach it, I will, next time I see him tell him he was right and I learned something. Yet in my experience, I have never had a ref do that to me.
Just as funny end to this rambling, I once had a ref I coached with who was as I called him a vengence ref. If you pissed him off, which could on some days be just saying "aw com'n" he would than begin making calls to punish my team. Other teams also, I wasn't the only one. I kid you not, he once called a T on me for nothing, He thought I said something, and T'd me up. At the time I wasn't even sure what happened and what foul was called, I asked him who is the foul on and what for?? He told me "you, you arrogant *******" and T'd me again and threw me out of the game. Which I didn't leave, but that is another story. He gained enough complaints that he was banned from reffing anymore....thank GOD!! but I thought you guys might find that funny.

I find it arrogant that a middle school coach actually thinks he knows more than people that likely had to pass a written test and probably attended training classes to discuss everything from rules to mechanic. I guess we all notice different stuff in they way people say things.

Peace

Methinks that you should concentrate more on coaching and less on officiating. You can't do both. And you're trying to.

Just an observation after reading your posts.

My example is perfectly valid. It involves an authority figure being challenged by one over whom he has authority, on the very subject he is supposed to be authoratative about. And despite your protests about how you're different, your own words betray you as a card-carrying member of the same club: "First, I am older and more knowledgable than a 13 year old player."

Fact is, I've got a 12 yo that will whip your tail on knowledge of any subject that she's passionately interested in; and there are quite a few of them. Age is no guarantee of superior knowledge, and neither is a position of authority. Yet we all ignorantly plod along assuming we know more than those around us who are much younger or over whom we preside. And yes, none of us likes to be proven wrong. No big surprise there. What you're grousing about is not so much arrogant referees as it is human nature, and every one of us here can tell you many similar stories about coaches. ;)

As for well called MS games, I don't know what else to tell you except Good Luck. Most places the only qualfication to be a MS referee is a willingness to do the job and the ability to get off work in time for the games. It's difficult work. Generally the games aren't "games." A "game" has a flow to it. You can call a "game" consistently because you can identify plays that are similar to previous plays and call them the same. MS games are more like a thousand individual and completely random moments strung together with bits of bad ball handling. It's a great place to learn to make calls. But it's a hopeless place to learn to call a consistent "game."

So that's what you get, guys who are learning to make calls. And how does one learn to make calls? By screwing calls up. Repeatedly. Until they learn to get them right. And when an official finally learns to get calls right, he usually moves on to bigger games.

OTOH, coaches can be pretty random too. You say you don't want us to call every little foul or violation. We can agree on that. The trouble then is agreeing on which ones matter. I guarantee you, 100% money back and all that, that over the course of an entire game you will believe that a violation or foul your opponent commits needs to be called way more often than a similar violation or foul commited by one of your own players. And if the game is close I will equally guarantee that you want every single violation called on your opponent, and every bit of contact your opponent creates to be called a foul. At that point, for you, it's not at all about maturity and skill level, it's about trying to use us to gain a competitive advantage.

Bottom line: players, coaches, and officials participate in MS games for the experience. Generally none of them are very good. Those that get better move on to higher levels. Those that don't quit or stay at the MS level.

While you may be older and more knowledgable than a 13 year old, it is also likely true that a referee, even of limited experience, that has at the very least passed a written test and likely had additional training is more knowledgable concerning officiating a basketball game.
To a certain extent I think this is a little bit of the attitude that a referee must have. If s/he is constantly questioning every call s/he makes then is going to be limited by him/her questioning the call. Furthermore, I doubt that you've ever had one official question another within earshot of you or any other coach/player/fan/etc. When those types of conversations do occur they take place away from everybody else (or at least they should). Even if this has happened once, I don't see it happening repeatedly as you suggest by using the word "times" (times being plural and therefore meaning more once).
For somebody that has been using the rulebook to make his point so much, I would think that you would expect all officials not to call anything on picking up a pivot foot to get a pass off. This is specifically one reason that the pivot foot can be picked up. The only thing that can't be done once the pivot foot is picked up is putting it back down or starting a dribble. Additionally this is the place the players should be learning. If we allow them to travel or commit "minor double dribbles" then they will continue doing so into their HS level games and not think anything of it until they can't make the team and the coach tells them that its because they can't dribble well enough. Instead of complaining about refs making such calls, teach your players not to make such mistakes. Just because they are middle schoolers and at an awkward developmental stage, that doesn't make them incapable of learning to do better.
I think the thing that is missing from your logic is that the ref is not directly responsible to you for the performance of his/her job. It is no more his/her job to coach your team, teach you how to coach, or educate you on the rules (which knowing the rules IMO should be a significant part of coaching and not something that refs should be expected to do during or even after the game, it should be a prerequisite) than it is yours to correct the referee on his interpretation of the rules or their application to the given situation.
This isn't to say that we are above explaining our calls on the court, but that explaination shouldn't have to include "a travel by rule occurs when..."; or that we are above listening to your side, but that should not include waiving a rule book at us at any point before, during or after a game.
I typically hand 3 business cards to game management when I arrive and ask them to give one to each coach and keep one for the AD to use should they have any questions or need to contact me, but I'm not going to play 20 questions or try to argue with coaches before, during or after games.
Finally, is it possible that he was giving you a T for waiving your rulebook or doing something else to undermine his authority? I'm not saying this guy was the golden boy of officiating, but I know many referees that aren't going to allow for anything that undermines their authority to perform their duty. I'm just saying that it is possible for non-verbal issues resulting in a T.

How many times to do you hold conferences with the parents of your players? And many times do you tell them you were wrong for running a certain play or using a certain rotation?


Who do you think is working MS games? A lot of times it's new officials who are just starting out. I'm asking that since they are new that you cut them some slack on certain aspects of the game. BTW, picking up your pivot foot to get off a pass is not a violation. And what is a minor double dribble?

What's that gotta do with us? I ref games in which I have good friends playing and they do the most whining. When I played I was an a$$-hole to a couple of my best friends in their early years of officiating and now both are D1 officials. All that has nothing to do with coming into this forum and learning.

bad attitudes!!!
 

First I think you are all missing my point. Second, I haven't once questioned your personal abilitly to ref, yet by your responses, you have, some in polite, others in direct ways, put me down simpley for being a coach and/or ignorant of the rules, which I find kinda arrogant and condesending.
From the lastest barrage of responses, I find it hard to believe that you would think a ref wouldn't know the rules at the MS level. Your examples of a 13 yr old knowing more than a coach, I concede that that may be true, but in a rare situation. Why say that anyway? Do you think that because I am a coach, or do you think that some 13yr olds know more than you refs too??
Using parents calling me on the carpet for plays is completely different than reffing. reffing has a set standard rules. Coaching does not. One coach may run this while another doesn't. Although we are bound by human error, to link the two is delinquent.
My final point in all of this is, I was being honest. I never once condemed you personally. I never pointed a finger. I simply stated my opinion and what I got back was some refs who apparently feel slighted in some way. How, I don't know. Did I ever say that you were losers who didn't know what you were doing?? No I simply talked about the refs I experience...not you. To be honest again, I get the impression that you who responded to my posts think coaches are basically the bottom feeders of knowledge and talent. I heard someone make the comment,
"I find it arrogant that a middle school coach actually thinks he knows more than people that likely had to pass a written test and probably attended training classes to discuss everything from rules to mechanic."
So taking a written test means you now more?? Just asking. I think that is arrogant. For the record, I never said that I know more. NEVER! But to think that a ref is above the coach in knowledge is just as arrogant as thinking a 13 yr old is above a coach in knowledge. Listen, the bottom line is, I never called you out personally. I never bad mouthed you on this board. I never said that refs don't know anything. I simply shared my experiences and got tarred and feathered for it. I understand your plight. I would hate to be yelled at every game and think I'm a jerk by parents and coaches alike. I guess i will limit my posts to questions now, knowing that if I share my opinion as a coach I will be, belittled, put down, and made to feel stupid under the mighty knowledge and authority that is a ref! sorry if I hurt anyones feeling I will shut up in the future and only ask questions. thank you for answering my question in the beggining I appreciate your input and knowledge.

Coach, whatinthehell is your problem?:confused:

You asked for opinions. You got 'em. If you don't like those opinions, well, that's just too bad. What did you expect anyway? That's how this forum works.

You got opinions from official's viewpoints. Deal with it. What would you do if you were out on the court with a whistle in your mouth and you had 2 sets of coaches and 5000 fans second-guessing everything that you did? Fair's fair.

Spock...there are too. Many. Words. Can't...think must....escape

http://www.kino.de/pix/newspics/205726_1.jpg

Just a couple of points I don't think have been touched upon. First off, I also applaud you for learning the rules by talking to officials. More coaches should do that. In your post you make a comment about a us knowing more becuase we take a written test. Well yes, in preparing for the test we do learn the rules better than most coaches. In addiditon, almost everyone here attends camps, talks to evaluators, or is an evaluator so we work hard to learn how to apply those rules.

Next off, officials are a tight nit group. We will almost always side with an official over a coach. In your OP, it sounds like there might have been a foul that should have been called. It wasn't for some reason. The official gave you a reason why it wasn't called and that's the way it happened to the calling official.

Lastly, this is middle school basketball. As others have said, you probably aren't getting the cream of the crop as far as officals. This is true. Another thing I hope you can understand is that there is nothing more difficult to do fairly than junior high basketball. The players don't understand the game, they don't have the basketball skills, and they don't have great overall athletic skills. You might have a couple of players that play a lot and can be officiated easily, but there will also be a few on the floor that haven't touched a basketball outside of playing at recess. Let me assure as an official that used to work that level, it is by far the most difficult job in officiating.

Thanks for the questions and I hope you will continue to pick our minds and take our judgement and rules knowledge to help you grow as a coach.

Mr. RedskinNation, officials are assigned games by certain people, whether it be a supervisor, assignor, commissioner, or the school's Athletic Director. If you believe an official is improperly applying rules you need to relay that information to the proper authority. The refs do not work directly for you, the coach. It is not your business to wave a rulebook in front of an official and tell him he is wrong. Also, a few of your scenarios involved judgement of an official, not rules application.

Now answer me this, where are new officials supposed to get their training and learn the ropes? Where I live, Middle School games serve a large portion of that function. So yes, you are going to have officials who don't have a command of the rulebook.

Your problem in this forum is that you are being disingenuous. You ask our input for certain situations then argue when you don't like our answers. I think you're really here so you can go back to one of your offending officials and say "See, I told you so."

You're like one of those guests who come on Dr. Phil, ask for help and advice, then get mad when they don't hear what they want to hear, then end up arguing with Dr. Phil.

If you are just looking for confirmation that MS officials aren't the best officials in the world, I'm sure there are plenty of coaching forums where you can vent and get all the affirmation you need in return.

And lastly, quit whining with all this refs must think "coaches are basically the bottom feeders" garbage. We officials disagree with each other all the time and we have all kinds of "popcorn" worthy spectacles within the confines of this forum, the locker room after a game, or the nearest Bar & Grill. You aren't getting any kind of special mistreatment that we don't already give to each other.

guy card violation
 

Hey isn't admitting that you watch Dr Phil a guy card violation ?????? :D

I think you really need to learn reading comprehension.

Once again I think you need to learn to understand what is written. If officials are starting at the MS level, do you think they know everything there is to know about officiating? That probably means they do not have the best grasp of the rules. Many rules and judgment are not grasped until several years of working games. Same goes for players and coaches when it comes to playing the game. Michael Jordan did not become a great player at the JH level.

I disagree with your answer, but that just shows you do not want to take responsibility for your actions.

Well I stated my opinion. If you do not like the opinion that you were given, well you have a couple of choices. You can either accept those opinions as being different than yours, or you can whine that people do not agree with you. I guess you do have another choice, you can leave and you will never have to worry about what anyone says.

I can speak for myself only. I never said they knew more, I said they have been through more training than you have. Even if all an official did was have to take a test that is more rules knowledge than the vast majority of coaches go through in a career. Then depending on the area, that official had to take classes and other requirements before even stepping onto the court. Now we are assuming that we are talking about brand new refs. It is very likely that you got veterans that have likely worked more games in a season than you will see in a few years. I do not know I also do not ultimately care. But you were given a lot of answers and you choose not to accept them. None of us where there and as far as I am concerned, you are a middle school coach. I seriously doubt that anyone is putting full page articles about your team on a game by game basis. Put the games in perspective. We have already told you why you do not get the top officials and you keep insisting that we cannot accept what happen in games we did not witness. Dude, get a grip and teach your players better. I cannot imagine that there are many teams at that level that are so good that night in and night out you are struggling to compete with equally talented teams and the officials are the reason you are losing.

Peace

Thanks Junker
 

Thank you Junker. You seem to be the only one here who sees my point and gets that I am not trashing Refs. Thanks you :)

As for the rest of you
 

"Well I stated my opinion. If you do not like the opinion that you were given, well you have a couple of choices. You can either accept those opinions as being different than yours, or you can whine that people do not agree with you. I guess you do have another choice, you can leave and you will never have to worry about what anyone says."

You guys just don't get it! I am not arguing your opinion on what I origianlly asked a question about. why is it that if you say something I can't discuss it without being labeled a Middle school coach? Did any of you read my posts. I am not calling you out!! I am not saying you are stupid!! I am not saying that I now more than you, that is what YOU are reading into my posts. Give me an example of where I have said I know more than you. Give me an example where I have said refs are stupid and don't know anything. Just becuase I disagree with Refs I deal with doesn't mean I think all refs are stupid. Why can't it be I thought that particular ref got it wrong??
God amlighty, if this is what someone gets for sharing his opinion, I hate to see what you guys do to people who you really don't like!! I give up! sharing my opinion has gotten me labeled as something less than smart. not knowing what I am talking about. Picked on for possible gramatical errors. and basically raged on. And for what?? I again state, that at no point did I ever say I know more. That you guys didn't know anything or put you down,call you out or in any way belittle you. Yet for my opinoin that is what I got. Lastly I want to thank JUNKER for being the only person on here who has been firm but FRIENDLY and hasn't taked down to me!! Big thanks to JUNKER!!!

Exactly. A whole bunch of "someones" here shared <b>their</b> opinions with you, and you simply refuse to accept that fact because you don't <b>agree</b> with their opinions.

That's <b>your</b> problem, not theirs.

I missed the part where I said you called anybody stupid. I also missed the part where you addressed any of my questions and assertions directed towards you.

But I did tell you to quit whining, which I don't retract in light of your latest rhetoric-laced post.

Are you above answering direct questions?

You are not a Middle school coach?

Wow, are we sensitive today. No one even suggested your claims.

Hey man, I do not care about what happens at the local Junior High around the corner from my house, why would I care about what you say here about what took place at a Middle School game in likely another state or jurisdiction?

What I do not understand, no one has called you a name. There are people that have disagreed with you (including myself). Not sure where dislike even came into the equation. I can see you are a paranoid coach who thinks everything someone does in a sport is about you.

Once again, no one that I have read has called you names, they just disagreed with you. Disagreement (at least for me) is never personal. I do not even know you. I know nothing about you other than what you have stated here. Then you want to talk about how we would act if someone does not like us? :rolleyes: Maybe it is time to look in the mirror and realize that you came here and asked a question. Then you talked about your unsportsmanlike behavior and justified it by saying you knew more than the officials that worked your games. I know I even agreed that you are not getting the top-notch officials because most top-notch officials are not going to work middle school ball. But just because you say something happen, does not make it so. I bet if we asked the officials about these situations, at the very least there might be different version of the events and likely what you say happen is not completely true. Considering how sensitive you are, I can see why you are having some of these problems.

Peace

please don't miss qoute me
 

Badnewsref, please do not miss qoute me. I never said what you posted in a box as what I origanally said.

I also went back and reviewed what I said to see what might have brought about such debate, and I believe it was the rule book statement telling the ref he was wrong. Oh well. Like I said, I'm done. Having marinated on this debate I have come to see that we just don't see eye to eye. And that's ok, cause that is what makes this forum good. Even though I get the impression that you guys see me as a A**hole coach who is arrogant and thinks he knows it all, I'm really not. I appreciate all your input so I can be a better coach and learn. I just never thought that one statement would spark such debate. I truelly hope that this doesn't tarnish your openess to share your knowledge with schmucks like me!!
thanks

It seems it was partly that, and also your incorrect statement regarding incidental contact. Most here would agree on two things: a coach should never approach an official with a rule book at a later date with a "I'm right and you're wrong" approach - especially regarding a scenario that is completely judgement-based, like your original post. (Which, by the way, if it happened just as you described certainly sounds like it could have been a foul, but we'll never know because we didn't see it.)

Secondly, having you tell us that you do approach officials when they "get something wrong," and then having you demonstrate that you don't understand the basic rules regarding incidental contact resulting in a violation AND traveling, plus saying that these officials in your games SHOULDN'T call all violations, puts your premise in question. I think that's all that was being suggested.

The bottom line is, what happened in your game may or may not have been a foul. The official calling it may or may not have seen the same thing you did. We're not perfect, coaches aren't perfect, players aren't perfect. But your posting style certainly suggests that you expect us to be and you feel you have a greater understanding of the rules than the officials calling your games. I'd suggest simply not making that assumption from now on, asking for explanations from officials when you feel you need them, and after the game if you determine the official improperly applied a rule - not made a judgement call differently than you would have - you should talk to the assignor.

And now you're stewing about it. How appropriate.

So let's just recap briefly. The ref's you've shown the rulebook to didn't respond favorably. The refs here didn't respond favorably when you described this tactic either. I'd have to say that this just isn't working for you, Coach. Perhaps it's time to try a new approach.

I was sincere when I extended my welcome to you to the forum. I still feel the same way. You obviously came here looking for informed answers. Whether or not you expected to get such a different point of view, I hope you'll find it valuable.

I'm going to add my two bits here.
The ref you talked about in the original post was right. It's a judgment call. You're wrong in saying it's not open to interpretation. Look at rule 4-27; it clearly states that foul calls are jugdment calls. If a player pushes another one, and that other player later travels, it doesn't mean the relationship between the two events is causal. That's for the ref the determine.

If the ref thinks the push did not cause the travel (maybe he thought she was off balance before or maybe he thought she gathered herself first), then he's going to call the travel. If the ref thinks the push caused the travel, he'll call the push.

The fact is, it's a judgment call for which the responsibility is on two people in the gym.
Furthermore, most middle school refs are struggling with how to apply these things. He may have initially thought the contact was incidental and didn't want to come in with the late foul. I've called the late foul on this play; but it takes some experience to do that.

I'm sorry but I have to say it
 

Jurassic Referee.......You are just rude and cranky!!! That statement simply says that I had thought about what was said and that having taken it in, I don't agree with some of it. To make the assumption that I am mad and stewing about it is a stretch and putting words in my mouth and I don't appreciate it. My last post I thought was extremely gracious and extending an olive branch to you guys for arguing, and your last post to me was not. For your information I am not stewing, I am not mad, but having read your post I now am. Thanks. To you other REFS who responded after my last post, I greatly thank you for your graciousness and openness and kindness for sharing with me. It gives me hope that we can all debate without being rude and condecending.

Judgement
 

I worked a boys varsity game Friday night with the highest ranked partner that I've worked with in a long time. In our post-game conference he said that he wanted one call back. A-1 was dribbling in the backcourt near the sideline when he got slightly bumped by B-1. According to my partner, A-1 was able to dribble "through" the slight bump, so my partner passed on the foul. The next thing to happen, was A-1 stepping on the sideline, with my partner awarding the ball to Team B for a throw-in. Unfortunately, this happened right in front of the Team A bench and Team A coach, who gave my partner an earful. My partner, in our post-game conference, said that he had wished that he had called the foul.

If officiating was easy, they wouldn't need to pay each of us $80.00 a game to get qualified officials. If officiating was easy, we wouldn't need to constantly go to clinics. If officiating was easy, there would be no need for a forum, such as this one. It's hard to do. If you've never done it, you don't know what it's like to be in our shoes.

You spelled "condescending" wrong.:rolleyes:

Other than that, for the first time, I pretty much gotta agree with you. Resume marinating.