Block/charge
 

Defender is set and stationary when the offensive player dribbling the ball runs into the defender. Offensive player bounces off the defender and goes to the ground, while the defender is still standing in the same position. I call a charge. Coach gets upset and asks how his player can be on the ground and still get a charge while the defender is still standing. I agree it was unusual, but didn't have an answer to the question and still believe I made the correct call. Anybody have a similar situation and how have you handled it?

For me, it depends on a lot of factors. The book says one of the items in determining a foul is if the receiver of the action os deterred from performing normal defensive or offensive activities. This defender clearly was not! However, if the contact was severe enough to cause the dribbler to fall to the ground it probably was a foul, regardless of anything else. If defense scooped up the ball that got shaken loose by the dribblers antics, let the call go. If the dribbler keeps the ball and falls with it, you might get away with a travel. There's a wide variety of possibilities here. But I personally don't have a problem with a charge here.

Sell the call. Stick to your guns. Be consistent.

A charge is NOT determined by what happens AFTER the foul occurs, right?

Think Legal Guarding Position. Who had it, who violated it.

Is it possible your offensive player "flopped"?

I would love to see the tape however, does sound interesting and to me not something a coach could avoid commenting on.

Either a player control or a no-call. The way I read it, it sounds like a good chance for a no call.

I agree with the coach. The contact didn't prevent normal defensive maneuvers by the defender, so it was just incidental contact.

Without seeing it, I might have passed. Nobody gained an advantage.

I do not have a problem with charging here. Why penalize the defense because B1 is 6-10 and weighs 260 while A1 is 5-8 and goes 165?
If it's the other way around it'd be called.....As the defenses coach, I'd say chalk up the foul and get me to the bonus quicker!

4-7-2
Charging is illegal personal contact caused by pushing or moving into an opponent's torso.

Doesn't say the opponent has to be displaced.

OP didn't mention where the ball went, but...if A1 falls to the ground while holding the ball, a travel could have been called if the charging was passed on, correct?

Not much different than the offensive player stepping on a defender's foot and going down really. If the foot isn't stuck out, fuggedaboutit.

As described I'm thinking a "no call" would suffice. If A1 fell to the ground with the ball it's a travel, if A1 lost the ball, B1 probably has a very good chance of recovering the ball.

I have seen this time and time again, especially if the defensive person is large than the offensive person. Buy rule it is a charge, but most of the time I will have a no call unless there is displacement. Just my 2 cents.

I agree that a no-call could be good here, but I don't have a problem with calling the charge especially if the whistle cracked as the contact was made. And depending on the level. If you're a JV ref, working on getting the call right, and you were seeing the defender in position, the the dribbler deliberately running through, it was a great call. Your next development step will be to start working on holding the whistle, and allowing the play to develop, thus seeing the opportunity for a good no-call. Or possibly a travel, if the dribbler went down to the floor with theb all.

Maybe I'm too old-fashioned (I certainly can't say old school anymore), but this has to be a charge. Defender is not moving and is occupying a space on the floor. Offensive player is attempting to occupy that space with such force that he falls to the floor. How can this be incidental contact?

You are reading too much into the advantage/disadvantage aspect. If a HS player runs into you with enough force that he himself falls down, that hurts. Even if you never played the game, you must have had a player run into you at some point in your career. Ouch!

If pain isn't disadvantageous to playing basketball, I don't know what is.

I understand those who say they'd have to see the play, but this is obvious to me.

If you no-call this, I can almost guarantee that game is going to start going downhill. Keep your eyes open for chippy play.

Excellent point Juulie!!! You're kewl :cool:

This is like a screen being set. If a player runs hard into a legal screen and the screened player falls, you should not call a foul on anyone. The same applies here. First of all you should not call fouls just because someone falls and you should not call fouls just because someone does not fall. But if someone is in LGP and they do not get moved in any way, why call a foul?

Based on what I read, this is a no call all the way.

Peace

A foul, by definition, requires some advantage or disadvantage. If the player doesn't get moved or affected in any way, it's not a foul. You're not punishing him for being 260 lbs. Where's the punishment? Where's the disadvantage?
Now, if A1 crashes into him full speed and knocks the wind out of him without knocking him down, call the foul. But if B1 isn't fazed? No foul.

This has got to be a foul, otherwise you are making a determination not on the act itself, but on who the act was against. So at that point you are not treating all defenders equally. Not good, IMHO.

Rule 4-45-5 does not say there is not a foul if the defender doesn't fall down or act like he got hurt by the play. If the offensive player causes contact within the defender's vertical plan, then it is a foul.

I also apply 4-45-7 here too. The player with the ball is to be given NO MORE protection or consideration that the defender in judging which player has violated the rules.

I agree with Jimgolf. If this kind of contact is not called, where the offending player basically knocks himself to the ground, then you better look out. Things are going to get uglier.

Why do you think that the excess elbows violation has been added recently?? IMHO, previously, when no contact with excess elbows, no foul was typically called. BUT, the game got uglier because players were taking offense to that kind of act and retaliating to a degree, which in large part, gets caught by the official. The implemented violation for elbows keeps these things under check.

Lord help that guard that keeps chipping the center each time the center sets a screen. If he doesn't fall down, or acts hurt, etc. he's only going to take it for so long. Then of course, the only foul called will be on the center.......yikes.

Does anyone else snicker just a little when you see this happen? :D

Maybe we're seeing different plays in our heads or something; but I've seen a ton of plays where the ball handler runs into a stationary defender in the paint (normally a pg running into a tree), and usually it’s a no call. I can tell you this, I’ve never taken a bit of grief from the coach of the tree for a no call. Do you really think the pg is going to turn himself into some sort of human missile over and over again because we just call him for traveling?

Seriously, if the defender isn’t affected at all, then there’s no foul. If the pg runs in full speed and torpedoes him, then I might call it. But for 99% of the plays I can envision with this, you’ve got a pg running in, trying to avoid contact or draw a foul, and hitting a stationary defender who doesn’t get affected in the least.

You don’t call a kid for a minor push when there’s no advantage on the play.

first thing first -- the excess elbows violation has always been there -- it just used to be a T for the penalty which a lot of officials didnt want to call so they changed it to a violation.

what you are asking is to penalize players who are large because they might have an easy time making their power moves -- this case a smaller player bounced off a bigger player -- whats the foul? PC -- NO WAY punish the offense for what -- their player getting creamed and hitting the pine...I wont call it

Discretely, yes. :D

I've called games with this scenario happening. I don't call anything. The offensive player is penalized by the pain in his body from running into a tree and usually travels before he picks himself up off the floor. I'm not the only one in the gym snickering behind my whistle either. I have yet to hear a complaint from either coach on a no-call in this situation. They may be snickering too. :D

I forgot to add, it's the result of the contact, when combined with the rules of who is responsible, that defines a foul. You need both.

And you make a determination based on who the contact is against every single time; you don't call a foul when A1 pushes A2 into position.

Furthermore, not only is it not a foul, but if the dribbler held onto the ball while falling to the court, the dribbler has committed a traveling violation.

MTD, Sr.

I beat you to that one by about 13 hours, Mark!

Mark,

So when do you apply rule Rule 4-45-5? Only when the defender hits the ground or gets hurt from the contact by the offensive player?

So, when B1 reaches in and slaps A1's arm while A1 drives by him for a layup, are you going to call the slap and stop the layup?
If A1 bumps B1 from behind on a rebound but B1 gets the ball without being affected, are you going to call the push?

thats called hustle

what we are trying to explain is advantage/disadvantage -- 2 very key concepts in officiating

Phansen, it is good to question yourself about plays. It makes you better. In this instance I would probably leave this play alone, because the defender was not displaced and thus the offensive player did not or was not able to do anything. IMO, save the kid who got his butt knocked to the ground a foul, after all isn't it bad enough he got knocked down, plus it looks bad. This is a good instance where you could have kept the coach off of your back. By no calling it all he would have asked was why wasn't that a block, and you respond with something to the likes of, "the defender beat him to the spot" and in almost all circumstances he will leave you alone, and if nothing at all at least you gave him an answer compared to not having one as you stated. Always allow yourself a chance to let the play go through your "replay system" instead of blowing the whistle instantaneously in reaction to a play. I feel if you had done this, then you would have thought it through and understood that it doesn't make alot of sense to call a foul on the player who got knocked to the floor. This takes time to perfect, but once perfected or at least almost perfected it makes a world of difference, and you will see a great change in the amount of plays you get right as well.

P.S. Don't always try to be a rule book ref, when it comes to plays that involve judgement. The rulebook is a guideline, but always remember there are whistle blowers and there are referees in our line of work. Whistle blowers, just blow the whistle all the time, no matter what level. Referees understand the severity of contact and what the level is that they are officiating and judge plays accordingly. Do not be a whistle blower!

The fact is that the rules don't call it a foul without advantage or displacement of some sort. I'll ask the question this way, as it paraphrases your question to Mark.

When do you apply rule 4-27?
It's not a foul without an illegal advantage, so you are unfairly penalizing A1 on this if you call him for a foul; and you are unfairly adding to Team A's foul count.

Juulie:

I am sorry, I didn't see your post, I was just skimming through them.

MTD, Sr.