Open for comment
 

I have another question. I was always taught that if you are square with another player even if you are moving with him/her that contact is charging not blocking.

I am going to be honest with you. I do not know what you are asking. Square how?

Peace

By square, do you mean the defender has legal guarding position?

If you asking whether you can draw the charge while moving, the answer is yes. The defender does not have to be stationary, does not even have to be touching the floor. If you are guarding a player with the ball, then all you have to do is:

1) be facing him/her initially,
2) then beat that player to the spot on the floor (unless the ballhandler is already airborne) and
3) not be moving toward the ballhandler when the contact occurs.

If those three things happen and there is contact on the torso that displaces you, it's a charge (player control foul).

The rules are a little different if you're guarding a player without the ball. In that case, you need to allow the player you're guarding time and distance to avoid the contact.

I would like to add, "have position established on the floor (feet on the floor) - which puts the defender in 'legal guarding position'" to the aforementioned post. Otherwise, what Scrapper said.

That's almost what Scapper's #1 said, Dog. That's basically the same as "facing him/her initially". Scrappy just left out the "both feet on the floor part.

Bad Scrappy. Bad, bad Scrappy!

Good addition.

Also....the guard doesn't have to be facing the opponent either when the contact occurs. He can turn or duck to absorb the contact.

Does squaring up mean the same as:

ART. 2 . . . To obtain an initial legal guarding position:

a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

No, I think that the original poster meant <b>after</b> LGP was established.

I think.

Maybe.

If he did, rule 4-23-3 applies.

LGP is what I meant...sorry
 

Sorry for the confusion, I forgot that you refs talk Ref speak. LGP was what I meant, and from your answers, I feel let down, since by definition most refs I deal with would call a player for blocking even if LGP was obtained.

Also....the guard doesn't have to be facing the opponent either when the contact occurs. He can turn or duck to absorb the contact. Based on this I see my players called for blocking almost everytime. I was always taught that if you have LGP, as you call it, that contact by the opponent is charging.

You feel let down because....

I don't get your point here.

Then I would suggest you teach (coach) your players to stop turning and ducking. There's quite a bit a player can do to turn a charge into a block.

Sadly, this is true do to officials who do not correctly call the charge/block. We as officials are much too quick to call a foul on the defense in these situations even when the defender has LGP and is retreating.

I agree. <more text>

No, this is due to how players are coached.

I would not agree that "we" as officials are too quick or too slow to do anything.

I would only say that there's a lot a player can do to turn a charge into a block. Of course there's also a lot a player can do to maintain LGP and get the charge. How it turns out depends to a large degree on the coaching.

This coach claims he rarely gets charge calls. As I said if I were him I would take a long look at what I'm teaching.

the only time a charge turns to a block IMO -- is when the defensive players starts to fall way before the contact -- that I deem a block -- and I know by definition a flop is a T in this case but thats a bit harsh and the contact is always the same as a normal block charge call.

Falling away can only lessen the contact, not increase it. If the player had stood his ground, would it be a block? No, then don't call a block if they step/fall away from the contact.

If a player starts falling backward before the call, I will often call it a block, and then say to the play, "if you want the charge, then you need to stand there and take it."

yes but
 

I would agree, and I always coach to plant and stand and take the hit, but unfortunetly most refs I experience won't make the call unless it is an iron clad obvious charge. Like the player has established LGP 3 steps ahead of the other player and he gets run over. That seems to be the only instance I have come across in my experience where a ref calls charging.
The most uncalled violation in my experience is Player A is defending the ball. Player B cuts around Player A, Another Player A2 anticipates this and assumes a LGP on the other side of his partner. Player B comes around the blind side of Player A and runs into Player A2. I see this called blocking all the time. When by definition he had established LGP more than 1 step from a player who was obstructed.

camron i disagree -- the defender is wimping out and putting the offensive player and him at risk for an ugly collision -- the onus on this is the defensive player to take the charge -- the defender falling early IMO he gives up LGP once he starts to do this

From that example, player A2 does not need to be a step or more away from B in order to obtain a LGP. A2 just needs to be in front of player B to est. LGP, like any other situation. If A2 gets LGP on B, and B initiates contact, then PC. Where a step must be given, is when an offensive player sets a screen behind a defensive player

also if i am wrong and I usually am -- a player who gets possession of the ball and is airborne must be allowed to land.

You're going to have to talk to your local rules interpreter to see how he's instructing people to call things in your area. No one on this board have any authority to say what will or won't be called or how in your locale. We only know how we are told to interpret things "around here".

That might be a philosophy, but that does not fit the rule at all. I am not talking about a flop.

Peace

just curious
 

About the falling away. some of you said that if the player begins to fall away before contact, you would call that blocking. I am curious how? If he still has both feet planted, has LGP by rule (you guys said it) even if he is moving (ie falling backwards) doesn't that still fall within the rules as long as LGP and feet planted are in effect??

If it looks like a flop, I"ll call it a block, but that doesn't happen very often. More often, the shooter will pull up just short, just as the defender begins to lean back. Then there could be quite a bit of contact, but I"ll call it incidental, and the coach wants it to have been a charge. There's a lot of judgment involved, it's not as simple as just yes-LGP-yes-charge.

^^ what she said

A flop is when a player purposely throws himself backwards or out of the way to make it look like he or she was run over. If that is what they are doing when people refer to "falling away," then I would agree that this would likely bring block call. I would rather call a block instead of calling an immediate T if we judge a flop to be faking being fouled. The problem is it is hard to tell sometimes so officials tend to pass on these types of plays.

If a player legitimately ran another player over, I will call a PC Foul all day. I tend to call more PC fouls than most people anyway.

Peace

I do too -- call more pc fouls that is

Exactly. LGP doesn't turn into a block because a player might try to protect themselves a little from the contact by leaning backwards. It can <b>never</b> be a block if the defender had LGP at the time of contact, and was moving in <b>any</b> direction but towards the offensive player.

Calling a block because a defender falls backwards is just patently ridiculous imo. If you feel like no-calling it because of the lessened contact, fine, That's a judgement call. But don't make up your own rules and call it a block.

where is lgp when a player is half way falling down and then contact occurs? his feet might be planted but a 45degree angle of the body doth not lgp make imo

If you are having a problem with this, maybe you need to review the actual rule. I player can move backwards and maintain legal guarding position.

Peace

i agree with moving backward -- falling down is where i would say the player lost LGP -- how can you have LGP falling down? who the heck are you guarding. there is a difference between bracing for impact and falling down thats all I am saying.

You really don't understand the concept, do you?:rolleyes:

And if it's explained, you also won't understand the explanation.

Sooooooo......buh-bye.:)

Really. The offensive player who is barreling in at him at full speed has not part of making the ensuing collision ugly. A defender does NOT have to get injured to draw a charge. They are allowed to protect themselves....either by cushioning the blow with thier hands or by fading away. I'm not talking about flopping half way to the floor before contact...but just a bit of fade.

We're not talking about a player halfway to the floor...you were not either. The original situation was a player who started to fade away and didn't stand in there and take it.

FALSE again. If an opponent was there before the player jumped, it is still a charge. If what you saw were true, you could pogo-stick around the court, crash through players, and never foul.

i was referring to establishing your position after the player had jumped --

and i am talking about a player who is clearly falling -- not just starting -- but falling down.

This is caused by the ref being too focused on the initial match-up (A v. B) and not the secondary matchup (A2 v. B). So, the ref is "surprised" to find A2 there and surmises that A2 was "late" (did not obtain LGP).

Depending on the location of the play, the other officials can help, especially in 3-person officiating.