Coach got rung last night
 

Here is the situation, I am a varsity official but I just observed this game.

Varsity men's basketball game, home team up two, visitor ball, with 10 seconds to go. Visitors come down the floor and throw up 3 shots that were very bad. Not wanting to dictate the out come of game the game officials let them play. Shooter 3 somehow gets hit in the face in the confusion after he shoots. He is laying on the ground when the ball goes out of bound to the home team with .9 seconds left. Visitor coach is irate, running back and forth up and down the floor screaming. Gets T one. Then goes to mid court and starts running his mouth still. T two gone. Then this is when it got bad, he proceeds to stay on the floor for about 5 minutes before anyone does anything to remove him. Still fuming. Talking to anyone that will talk to him including the PA announcer. Finally the refs escort him to the locker room along with the home team security and AD.

Fans are going nuts for the visitors while home team hits 3-4. I was with two fellow officials who also thought they behaved admirably. Until I talk to two parents of the home team that think he should not have been rung, with .9 left. They thought he should have given the ball to the home team to throw in a gotten out of there. Your thoughts?

Time should never be a factor in issuing a T. If the actions warrant it, whack him. I learned this the hard way... I didnt T up a coach when he deserved it when there was only 6 seconds left, and the next game I ran him because he thought he could walk all over me... mind you, this was a MS girls B team game

I would have put the clock on him as soon as he refused to leave. Put one minute up, and if he hasn't started to leave when it's over, forfeit it. Letting the situation go on and on is just risking possible fan involvement from his team supporters. The other one that I don't agree with is the officials escorting the coach to the locker room. Stay the hell away from the coach. Let the AD/security escort him out. The officials being in such close proximity to the coach can only inflame the situation.

I thought he should have been tossed because he was not going to allow the progress of the game.

It was some parents who thought he should have not been tossed with .9 to go.

Yes, ring him up for this; both times.

This is where the Game Admin from Rita C's game would have came over to talk to the coach and offer him a drink of water and deecee would say it's non of the officials business what's going on over on the sidelines. :rolleyes:

Personally I think game admin did not know what to do. The home AD was in the training room with a fallen cheerleader. They home school had 4 principals that just stood there, and 5 cops one in each corner and one upstairs behind the visitors and they did nothing. Finally the home AD comes out and the principal at the school comes over along with the head football coach (former ref). They keep him in his locker room.

It's true, it's true....:D

Keep throwing out the T's?
 

If I remember correctly, the rulebook states that a player or coach are ejected after being assessed two technical fouls. It does not say that a player or coach can only be assessed two technical fouls. Could the referee continue calling T's until the coach finally did leave. I know this would not have changed the outcome of the game, but I think it would have either made the coach leave sooner or brought on a much stiffer penalty for the coach from the "higher ups" when the incident was reported.

Or it mighta made the coach madder and delayed his eventual departure further. Iow you're taking your chances if you try that.

I doubt it would have done either.

By all means, whack this coach. Just curious though, when you say "Not wanting to dictate the out come of game the game officials let them play", at what point does this include putting the whistle away when a player is knocked to the floor? Did you speak to the game officials after the game? Did they not see this or did they judge it not foul-worthy?

Under ncaa once a team member or coach accumulates enough T's to be DQ'ed he cannot get more T's (consequence of famous incident I believe).

I believe under NFHS you can keep T'ing them up as often as you like until they leave the confies, but why bother?

Scary area there my freind....

Sounds to me like the coach may have had a legitimate complaint. He didn't act properly, though.

These officials ended up in a bad situation, quite possibly of their own making. Coach probably saw a lot of contact let go that was called a foul earlier in the game.

If the officials call a foul here, they have not "dictated the outcome of the game". The player that fouled may have had a hand in it, so to speak, but not the officials.

I've heard the philosophy of "not determining the outcome of a game," and I think there is a fine line between what you should call and what you should pass on.

I was watching the Lakers and Heat play the other night. The score was tied with just a few seconds left in regulation. Kobe drives to the hoop and plows over player from the Heat. Watching the reply, it looked to me like it could have been called either way, as the defender moved into Kobe. Both of the players hit the floor. No call. Good no call IMO, because that call truely would have determined the outcome of the game.

lol this is completly different -- i would expect game management to come here and get him the heck off the court. you are comparing apples to cucumbers here.

I spoke with the head official who gave both technicals. He is a friend. He stated that he was hit with an elbow in the face by his own teammate. However there was body contact on the shot that could have been called, they said it didn't warrant a foul in the final 3 seconds. This was a game where for the most part the officals let them play, it was a physical game. However they would call blatent and excessive contact. However it was not as tightly called as I have seen out of some officials. I prefer to let them play a little.

Your right that it would not be dictating the outcome. However how many times have you seen officials not call anything in a last second play like that. Frankly the way I do it is based on judgement. If it is clearly a blatent foul/hack I will blow the whistle. But if you flop on the ground trying to draw a charge or you slide under for a block, I'm letting that go. I am not rewarding a team with freethrows for a handcheck on the last play either.

what is completely different?

That philosophy is pretty dangerous. The no-call may also determine the outcome of the game, to use your words, if a foul is truly warranted. Remember, it's never the officials who determine the outcome, even if it's a foul at the last second. It's the player's action that determines the outcome. Too many times I've seen refs sit on their whistle in the last few seconds because they want to "get in get out get done" and not make the difficult call. If you see it, call it.

That's OK if the same type of foul also hasn't been called consistently all game long too. If they were calling that type of foul though, and then let one go just because it was the end of the game, then the officials might need a <i>cojones</i> transplant. Sometimes saying that "I don't want to dictate the outcome of the game" is just code for saying "I'm afraid to make a tough call".

Jmo.

I thought that was Rita's game....did I miss something..:eek:

A-freaking-(wo)men!

Think I covered all the bases that time....:D :D :D

Agree. I learned somewhere along the way to stay away from those last second fouls, especially if there was no chance at the shot. Then one day, I saw a 8th grader try a 70 foot baseball style shot as time was about to expire in the first half. He got mugged. One of the dumbest fouls I've ever seen. I blew the whiste simultaneous with the horn, and did not decide to back off on the call. He got three shots. I'm sure some refs will disagree with me, but just because time is expiring and the shot has no chance does not give the defense a free mugging. And if the coach doesn't like it, suggest that he take it up with his player.

WOW, the scary thing for me is their "last second" attitude. You HAVE to call the game. It sounds to me like them NOT calling fouls actually did cause the outcome of the game. Granted the coach was out of line, but they obviously decided if there was a foul that wasn't "excessive" they were putting their whistles on ice. This type of attitude really pi$$es me off

It's one thing if the game is a 40 pt blow-out and you are just protecting the players. It's entirely different if you have a close game and pass on a legitimate foul because you don't want to decide the game - that's crap.

In my opinion, swallowing the whistle in the last whatever of the game is bad policy, and often results in bad situations.

This is not necessarily swallowing the whistle. This might have been what was not called the entire game. As JR stated, this might not have been called all game long and you do not want to call for the first time you did not call in the first few minutes of the game. Also what should and should not be called is ultimately a judgment call anyway. I was not there I cannot say it was the right thing to do or not.

Peace

A vet once told me. If the player is stupid enough to commit a foul in that situation. I will be stupid enough to make the call. How much time that is left in the game has no bearing.:cool:

Good thread.

While I agree that it is bad to swallow the whistle on last second plays, I also think you have to look at the fact that this game was called loosely and they let them play. It was not inconsistant with what they called all night.

As far as I am concerned that is all that is required. You do not want to make a key call like that unless there were similar plays called earlier. Also if the kid got elbowed by his own player, I think it took balls not to just make a call because of the aftermath.

Peace

Then there you go. I had inferred from the "not in the last 3 seconds" that it would have been called during other times in the game. If that contact in that location was consistenly called throughout the game, I have no problem with the no-call, either.