For the record, the <b>right</b> thing is <b>not</b> to do what Old School suggested above. If you don't like what someone in the crowd is doing or saying, have them ejected by game management. If you can't find game management, use the head coach of the home team. <b>Never</b> issue a technical foul to anyone in the crowd except as a very,very last resort.

That is the recommended NFHS procedure.

I concur with this!

For the record, the NCAA has also given me a procedure to use. For the record, as in the case I was referring too. What are you going to do Mr. Knowitall, when the person responsible for game management is the person (someone in the crowd) in the stands that is causing the problem? Had this happen in a game too. Now what?

Because I know you never think outside the box. What do you think game management is going to do to Mark Cuban or the owner of the team. The person that pays game management their checks at the end of the night. It happened! I'm not advocating giving a team a technical everytime a fan says something that I don't like. I'm just saying there are options. I like to know all my options before I make a decision. And remember, I said after the coach made his smart remark; "Okay, I going to mention that comment to the A/D!" I think those words would have ended anymore smart remarks from the coach in that game.

Last, I have not had a fan go completely crazy on me. I have always been able to calm the fans down with a verbal warning. Never have had to get game management to remove anyone. However, I will say this. I don't put nothing by no fan. Remember, fans in NY or might have been Chicago attacked a base coach from Kansas City. Where was game management?

Hard to tell exactly by this sentence structure, but if you're talking about the Royals-White Sox incident - on the field in about 10 seconds.

That being said - Go Cubs.

1) Um, yeah, but you're trying to use your NCAA procedure in a junior varsity high school game though. Don't you think that maybe....just maybe....you might be better off using rules that are actually applicable to the game your officiating in? Or should we just pick out whatever ruleset we might feel like using in any game?

2) Already answered. Use the head coach of the home team. The case play that I mentioned also tells you what to do if the disruption is not brought under control too. Why don't you quickly open up your case book, read play 2.8.1 and tell us what is recommended.

Oh yeah! That would be right. Because, um, yeah, we do this all the time. We don't do long switches 2 or 3 person, or how about court coverage 60 - 40, that's NCAA Women's. JR, this is such a minor grey area, I don't think anyone would complain accept you. Of course, you would throw an official under the bus here, if he did what I did, wouldn't you? He would never work another JV game for you, would he? The problem here, which you fail to acknowledge is not the way I handled it, but the HC inappropriate behavior. Take away that, this incident doesn't even happen. Now you and/or the coach want to pick a fight with me becasue I handled it wrong. In a JV game!!!???? That's funny....

For the last time, what if the person causing the problem IS THE HOME TEAM COACH!!!!????? Now what you gonna do? I will give the home team a technical before I go looking for game management. But, then again, that's just me.

If this head coach is sitting in the stands during a JV game he is not part of the bench and should be treated as any other spectator unless he is the game administrator, which, in my experience, is very rare. He doesn't get any more attention from me than any other fan. Definitely not a T. That would be looking for trouble. :rolleyes:

OS,

No long switches were done on the Men's side first if not at the same time as the Women's game. Not sure what that has to do with the discussion. This situation took place at a HS level. None of that is even relevant. In many places (including where I am) it is frowned upon to use college mechanics and many philosophies for HS games.

I guess you are going to try to tell me next how many college games you have worked and how much you know about the process. Remember there are other people here that work college ball too.

Peace

1) A minor grey area, Old School? You want to handle a problem arising in an NFHS game by trying to use rules from a completely different ruleset-the NCAA? And the solution that you recommend also happens to go <b>completely</b> against the procedures that the NFHS laid out in the case book and would like officials to use in their games? And that's a <b>minor</b> grey area? What would you call a <b>major</b> grey area? And um, yeah, I also think that you might possibly get a whole buncha complaints if you tried your recommended method ouside a rec league.

2) No, Old School, the person causing the problem is not <b>the</b> head coach in this game. He is a <b>FAN</b>! The head coach is sitting on the JV bench. The FED has already laid out how they want fans dealt with in the case play that I cited. It seems quite obvious though, even to a dummy like me, that you don't have a clue what procedure that the NFHS is actually recommending us to use. If I'm wrong, then just simply cite the FED procedure recommended in that case play, and tell us why you personally refuse to use it.

If I recall, it took that long only because they had to get through the KC bench kicking the crap out of those two hooligans.

Actually, now that I think about it, didn't those hooligans admit to being Cubs fans? ;)

Just for the record, here is what Old School very conveniently left out above. It is the procedure that the NCAA recommends and is the one that should be used in the situation that we are discussing. Please note that it is basically similar to the recommended NFHS recommendation also. I'll post it now because I don't think that Old School is about to cite the NFHS case play.

<u><b>NCAA RULE 10-6-6:</b></u> <i>"When the misconduct of a follower(s) is extreme or excessive, such behavior may be penalized by the official requesting home-management to eject from the premises the team follower(s) involved in the misbehavior. <b>In such case, an indirect foul shall NOT be assessed</b>."</i>

What Old School did above was akin to issuing a manual without the instructions.

That's been there a long time too, Old School.

Guys, it's okay that you would do it different from me. I'm not losing any sleep over it. Of course I view the home team coach as a fan, and as a fan I would give the home team a technical based on what the coach said to me. However, I would have to know that this fan is the head coach and in this scenario, I would pull the trigger. So the bigger argument is not that I pulled the trigger and gave the home team a undeserved technical. The bigger argument is why is the head coach from the home team insulting me by saying I will never work another game in this gym. That is a direct personal insult to me.

Now people like JR looks for problems, look to throw officials under the bus. He would completely side with the coach/school here, and I would never work another game at that facility again or get games cut from my schedule. The only reason I bring this up is because I have been around. I am closer to 50 than I am 49. I am a African American male in this country. I have experienced discrimination and biasness first hand. Now, you wonder why you don't get an assignment, it because of assigners that think like this guy. Oh, my guy didn't follow proper procedures, I just won't give him any more games. It happens folks. That's why the industry needs more balance, more people from different backgrounds to give it proper prospective. You see, if I'm the assigner and the coach complained to me about the procedure afterwards, and let's say the JV team lost by one point. To me, I'm not looking to throw my guys under the bus. I'm going to support them in situations where I believe they should never have to deal with. In other words, you get your coach in line and this doesn't happen. Furthermore, we're even. Your coach messed up and my guy arguably follow improper procedures, depending on which way you want to look at it. I'll say it's a wash, like a double foul. I'll say you drop your complaint about my official and I won't file a complaint with the league about improper conduct from your coach.

Here's another fallacy in JR logic. If the A/D and/or HC complains that a college procedure was done over a HS procedure. I would say, come on guys. Which would you rather have? Would you rather have 2 new referees who's just learning working your JV games or would you rather have a veteran crew of a mix of college/varsity HS officials working your JV game? The guy was available and he wanted to work so I mix him in. Realistically, no school administrator is going to squat at that. They will take an experience college guy over 2 new guys any day working their JV games. Even if they do dink up a procedure once or twice. Different story if it happens in a varsity game.

You're still missing the point, Old School.

The recommended NCAA and NFHS procedures are basically the <b>same</b>. Both rulesets recommend unloading the <b>fan</b> by using game management to do so, and also to <b>NOT</b> issue a technical foul while doing so.

You were recommending your <b>own</b> procedure, not the NCAA or NFHS procedures. Your recommended procedure is completely wrong compared to the NCAA/NFHS ones.

And please don't get into the race/bias nonsense either. You get knocked for your obvious lack of knowledge when it comes to basic ules, mechanics, procedures, etc. It's got nothing to do with anything else.

And you fail to answer my point, what do you do if it's game management that's causing the problem? Answer that? I'm not creating my own rules, I'm handling a situation that's not clearly defined in the rules. You may disagree with it, and it's okay, at least in my world, it's okay to agree to disagree. But to say I lack basic rule knowledge because of the position I take is an insult. Again, I have had this happen to me where game management (home team staff) was the problem. A/D was at the football game. What are you going to do now Mr.Knowitall?

Quote the rule if you can find it. If not, then let it go.

I lack basic mechanics too? My goodness, how did you come to that conclusion, especially since you have never seen me work? Is it the same way you come to the conclusion I like basic rule knowledge? Well, I don't think we're into basic rule knowledge here, but that's jmo. However, if you could do me just one favor, that's all I ask, try not to throw any more officials under the bus!

Peace

As I said, Old School, I already answered that question in another post. The answer comes direct from NFHS rule 2-8-1NOTE and case book play 2.8.1. Please look it up and tell us what you find.

Aw, t'hell with it. You don't have a rule or case book, so I'll lay it out for anybody else that's not sure. If an AD is causing the problem, you designate the head coach of the home team to become game management. You ask the head coach to remove the AD,Varsity coach, whatever from the gym. You do <b>not</b> give out a damn "T" in this situation. You stop the game until the fan/AD/Varsity coach disappears. If the home head coach that you designated refuses to follow your instructions and unload the varmint, you suspend the game, fill out a report and let the league deal with it.

NFHS rule2-8-1NOTE says -<i>When team supporters become unruly or interfere with the with the orderly progress of the game, the officials shall stop the game until the host management resolves the situation and the game can proceed in an orderly manner. In the absence of a designated school representative, the home coach shall serve as game management."</i>

Excerpts from NFHS case book play 2.8.1COMMENT:
- <i>"This may require the removal of team follower(s). This can be done without charging the supporter's team with a technical foul. The advised procedure is for the official to notify game management as to which follower(s) must be removed from the site. The officials may stop the game until host management resolves the situation."
- "If the disruption is not brought under control and the contest cannot safely continue, rather than assess several technical fouls, officials are advised to suspend the game."</i>

There! You got it all, Old School. That how it's done. You don't use <b>"The Stare"</b>. You don't throw out a buncha "T"s. You don't do anything that is gonna make the situation <b>worse</b>.

Hopefully that finishes this nonsense once and for all.