Venting
 

Humor me for a second......

Tonight I drove 90 minutes to do 2 middle school games....girls middle school.

Game 1- 7th grade girls. Game goes very well and it's a 2 point game at the end. Home team wins.

Game 2- 8th grade girls. Home takes charge and in control the whole game. in the 4th quarter a home fan unhappy with several of my calls is yelling and yelling and yelling about EVERY call I make, " call it both ways" , " If it was a foul at the other end, it's a foul at this end too" " You're Terrible" OVER AND OVER AND OVER...I NEVER let a fan bother me, but this guy got under my skin, during a dead ball, I turned to the stands, not know which guy it was, and said "I don't know who it is that is yelling, but if I hear one more word, you won't be in this gym" . That was it, everything was fine after that.

I'd prefer not to address the fans, but in this case it was worth it. I don't know either of these two teams, I live over 60 miles away. I couldn't care less who wins, and it's a middle school game......

BTW, it's a great school to ref at because they give you free a hot dog ( they are great ), soda and popcorn!

You have no idea what you just set off, do you? Here come the "referee bought by a bottle of water" comments!

You're out of your mind.

Drive 120 miles to do 2 girl's middle school games?

Then let a fan get to you??!

Current IRS travel rates are like 48 cents per mile. I bet you lost more than you made, and you had the trip back to ponder the loud fan.

haha holy sh!t... that was a bad thread that was...lol... now we know why the 7th grade team won;) haha just kiddin

Paying your dues
 

That's what I did, Paid my dues. My 7th year refereeing, we each should travel at least twice a year to this school. This was my 2nd trip. My dues are paid.

I think most of us have been there at some point; especially those who get games from an association assigner. Maybe not for middle school, but I've done my share of traveling for JV games.

Sometimes you don't have a choice. We have a school that's 65-85 miles from most officials in our association. Someone has to cover their JV games (no doubleheaders for officials except for one small HS), so a lot time someone has to drive 65-85 miles one way to work a game for $38 plus $10 travel. Now luckily, we do have 2-3 officials who live about 15 miles from the school so they get a lot of work at that school, but they can't work there every game.

Way to take care of business. I applaud you! Next time, don't go against every fan in the gym because not all of them are involved. If you are going to address the fans, find the perpetrator first. All you need to do is identify him/her. Then give them the stare. Most of the time this is all you need do and it may save you a few words you could later regret. Then if that don't work, you can issue the ultimatum to the fan in question.

One thing I should caution you on issuing ultimatums. Be prepared to follow-thru.

That's right, get a little off your chest and it makes the ride back home a little better. Last night, I ejected my first player ever. I hate it when you get pushed to that point.

Absolutely terrible advice...never to be used by any real official.

Do <b>NOT</b> stare at fans. You ignore them or you unload them. You are not there to antagonize them. If you ever try that nonsense, believe me, you might find yourself in a situation that you do <b>not</b> want to be in. Other than being completely unprofessional, it's also stoopid.:rolleyes:

If you give the fans any sign that you are paying them attention, it will only get worse. Just remind yourself that there is a reason that you are on the floor, and they are in the stands. You are going home with the check in your pocket and they paid to watch you work. (not really, but you know what I mean) The best way to handle fans is to completely ignore them. If they think that you are the least bit bothered, they will only get worse. If they use profanity or do something that requires action, go to game management and let them handle it. We are there to do a service for the schools, not the fans in the stands. Ignore them, always smile, and remember that you and your partners are the only people in the gym who do not care how the contest ends. Everyone else in the building is there pulling for one team or the other, so there is automatic bias toward anyone that is not "for" their team.

If the fans start getting disruptive, have them removed by alerting game management. Thats will hurt more then the stare down tactic!

So the other night when I told a fan he "didn't have the nutz to officiate", I was being unprofessional? :(

You know better then to acknowledge a fan!!!! Bad Ref!!!!

:eek: Probably not a good idea. The thing about it, in our varsity association, you never know if an evaluator is sitting in the stands or not. They tend to show up often, and hide amongst the crowd until after the game. I don't think that they would like the idea of making comments into the crowd.

Luckily I was working an intramural game at a Navy base. I know I shouldn't have said it but my teen-age son had really pissed me off that day so I needed to vent at someone, so I picked this a$$-hole who was sitting behind one of the benches. I'm retired Air Force so it felt good to take out my wrath on a Navy puke. :)

Fellow TerpsFan, you mind me asking what the teams were and what league... MMGBL??

Somehow, I get the feeling that anything I say will be terrible advise to you. Thrown any officials under the bus lately?

Hey, I'm only reporting what works. It worked for me and I didn't have to go bother home management and I didn't have to say anything to anybody. All I did was eyeball the disruptive fan, and once I identified where he sat. Everytime he said something that I didn't like. I would look at him to let him know I know it's you. Now, if I have to have the fan removed, I know exactly who I'm going to have removed. I'm not guessing and generalizing everyone that's there. Last, and I really wasn't going to bring this up but since you say it's terrible advise. I don't know about you but I need to know how far some people are willing to go. I need to know who the person is in case they might try something after the game. You never know and you certainly won't know who to avoid or who maybe coming after you upon leaving if you don't look up there to find out.

You don't have to stare but you let them know I know it's you. A couple of quick stern looks and they generally calm down. Also, I generally don't get involved with a fan that's just complaining about a call. It's when the fans starts to get personal is when I start to pay attention.

But that's just me.

The only time I've ever addressed someone in the crowd was last year. The assignor called me last second to fill in on a boys 4th gr game (1 of 3) at a school 1 mile away--sure I can be there.
During the game, one mom kept yelling instructions or complaints at her son. I'm crowdside trail as her son attempts to rebound but fouls, whistled by lead.
She immediately yells " Bulls!!t". Since she's only about 15 ft behind me (and I knew it was her), I turned and told her that if it happens again, she's gone!---quiet the rest of the game(I think her sons eyes said thank you)...

Sheesh...60 miles each way! Maybe the school can throw in a round-trip limo ride along with the free dinner.

When you talk about staring. I just noticed that before I give a player or a coach a technical for inappropiate behavior, there's this look that comes over my face. It's almost like going into a new routine, one that I am not pleased to go into. That is the look I would give a fan that's being disruptive to my game, where I have to now step up and address it. Once I go into that mode, you are inches away from getting one or getting removed. I see no problem with giving a fan that look. You don't even have to say anything. That look will be your warning. Coaches know that look. Once I go into this mode. I don't play. But that's just me.

http://www.deliriousfilm.com/exorcis...s/xscarfac.JPG

is THIS the look OS?

Never address the fans. I'm sure you read that too many times on this thread. I had similar situation. With a fan that was sitting front row and standing and stretching his legs almost caused my partner to trip with 10 second in 2nd quarter. That was the first issue we address with security to move them to the 2nd and 3rd row. didn't have an issue all 2nd half. All you had to do was to let the school security know and they should have addressed it.

:D

Now this, I can understand. My brother's career Navy now, and you know my status. :)

We had a fan sitting right behind the V bench one game, he was a fan for the V team. Half time, the senior official amongst us told the game admin (also an official in our association as well as the superintendant at this particular school). GA then gave the fan a little sheet of paper that outlined expectations for spectators and told him in no uncertain terms that if it needed to be addressed again, it would be the last time that day.

I tossed a fan directly once. It was a really, really lousy freshmen girls game and there were about nine total fans in attendance. Two fo them were freshmen boys from the home school. They were razzing the visiting players who were indeed unattractive, unskilled, and overweight. But it was completely and utterly appalling for them to point it out as obnoxiously as they did. I couldn't find the AD, and my partner wouldn't do anything, so I told the guys, "Hey, you two, OUT!!" They left very obediently. When the AD showed up I told him what I'd done.

Here's something that happened to me. I am doing a JV game ( boys ) After a call, the varsity coach sitting opposite the team bench, said " You will Never work one of my games", then later made a comment about one of my calls
( and the call was right) I never acknowledged him, but it got under my skin.

what do you think? ignore or acknowledge?

Completely ignore. Probably want to say lots of things.

"And you will never see one of mine." Then, just stare at him. Make sure you give him the stinky eye. Then, stare at his pants and puke on his, um, his um, uh, his shoes, yeah, his shoes.
Okay, seriously, ignore him if you can.

Report it to your assignor. Varsity HC in attendance at JV is part of the school administration as far as I'm concerned and comments like that from school administration are unacceptable. When I worked JV games quite often the person who let me in to the locker room would be the Varsity coach. I couldn't imagine one of those folks then going up in the stands and heckling the officials.

I had a school janitor standing at the end of the baseline (where there were no bleachers and no fans were allowed to stand there) heckling me and my partner one time. I went straight up to him and told him if he's going to act like a fan then he needed to go sit in the bleachers.

or make a statement and have him removed for trying to intimidate you...

If I knew it was the varsity coach saying this. I would stop the game and ask him, "what did you just say?" If he repeats it. I would say, okay. I'm going to speak with the A/D about that comment. Guaranteed that will shut him up for the rest of the game. After the game, go home. Now, if the coach happens to be the A/D too. Home JV team getting a technical. Talk to my assigner about it afterwards.

For those that may ask. Let me answer it right now. Shoot 2 shots, give the ball back to the visiting team. Do not seat belt the JV coach. Nice thing about college is you can give a fan a technical. It does not count as a team foul or indirect to the head coach. Nice, but of course if you're too afraid to address the fan, well, you got problems. Might want to look at a different hobby.

Old I really would like some specifics on where and what level you do -- because even I am flabbergasted -- The only way I could see myself giving fans a T was if they were throwing stuff onto the court and WE had already asked them to stop via the PA system by the Head coach or game management. But fans getting a T from what I have been taught is a HUGH NONO -- and that is coming from NBA, D1, D2 top HS officials, assignors the works. The FANS have to earn that technical 3 or 4 times over before they actually get it. Just what I have been told.

I agree. I've never seen it called in about 1000 games I've reffed or coached. I've HEARD of it being called once, and that was a fiasco that never should have happened and should never be repeated.

That must have been the ONE game OS was reffing.

I swore to myself I would never enter into one of these but I can't resist anymore.

1) Why didn't you just give him <b>"The Stare"</b>? :eek:

2) Great advice.

I have only done this one time in my career as an official. It was a Girls Varsity Summer Camp and the fan was a parent of one of the players. He was being very nasty and sitting behind the table on the second row. The table was complaining and I asked him to be removed and since it was a camp, they wouldnt do it. So, I spoke with the coach of the team that his daughter played on. I told the coach that he could earn a "t" for his fan. The coached talked with him and he said the hell with the F@#$ing officials out loud. So we "t" the coach and then the coach asked him to leave or his daughter was on the bench for the rest of the season. Needless to say, he left. Of course those that dont know the rule gave me a hard time about that later on when they heard about it!!!;)

i agree with you IREF in this case -- you had no choice -- but great job of the coach to own up and at least offer some kind of threat to remedy the situation -- most coaches would have b*tched about it and earned #2.

NCAA Rule - been there a long time....

Section 5. Indirect Technical Fouls for Unsportsmanlike Conduct by Followers
Any follower(s) of a team shall be assessed an indirect technical foul for
unsportsmanlike conduct that includes but is not limited to the following:

Art. 4. Disrespectfully addressing an official, which includes the use of
profanity or language that is abusive, vulgar or obscene.
Art. 5. Using electronic transmission to communicate with those in the bench
area or passing knowledge acquired with the use of electronic instruments
(e.g., headsets, cellular telephones, modular telephones, television, radio,
Internet video or visual broadcast) to and from the bench area.

Section 6. Penalty for Unsportsmanlike Conduct by Followers

Art. 1. The penalty for an indirect technical foul assessed to a follower(s)
shall be two free throws awarded to a player of the offended team. The ball
shall be put back in play at the point of interruption.
Art. 2. Indirect technical fouls shall not count toward the team-foul total
nor shall they be charged to any specific team member.

Please cite the applicable NFHS rule and case play also. Othere readers may want to know that also.

Right because there is never a "Ref you 2#$#@ suck" in a college game that the ref hears and he goes on and Ts the fan up (or home coach whatever) -- please your ability to read the rulebook is superb however your ability to apply judgement failry and equitably is horrible.

I'll leave that up to you Mr. Knowitall, since you are the one requesting it. I've prove my point. Peace

Me too. You still don't own an NFHS rule book or case book, do you?:)

Deecee, what are you talking about?

If, in a HS jv game I am working, the head coach is sitting in the stands watching the game, and the HC says to me after a call I just made, you will never work in my gym again. In my judgement, he has just cross the line, and if he's the A/D and the coach, his JV teams getting a technical. If that's horrible judgement to you, then I am lucky I don't have to work with you. There is code in the NFHS rules book that talks about giving the home team a technical if fans are out of control. I think this would apply, but, that's just me. Peace

The "code" that you are talking about is NFHS case book play 2.8.1. The way that I read that case play, it doesn't really seem to agree at all with the way that you suggest handling the situation above. And....that's exactly why I asked you to cite that particular case play. I was wondering why you would ignore the advice given out by the FED in that case play. Which naturally lead to me wondering if you actually know what is contained in that case play.

So....do you know what the recommended procedure is in the case play? If so, please cite it... similar to the NCAA citation that you gave to us.

Don't have time to debate your nonsense. I have bigger fish to fry. Do whatever you think is the right thing to do here. I know what I'm going to do. Peace

For the record, the <b>right</b> thing is <b>not</b> to do what Old School suggested above. If you don't like what someone in the crowd is doing or saying, have them ejected by game management. If you can't find game management, use the head coach of the home team. <b>Never</b> issue a technical foul to anyone in the crowd except as a very,very last resort.

That is the recommended NFHS procedure.

I concur with this!

For the record, the NCAA has also given me a procedure to use. For the record, as in the case I was referring too. What are you going to do Mr. Knowitall, when the person responsible for game management is the person (someone in the crowd) in the stands that is causing the problem? Had this happen in a game too. Now what?

Because I know you never think outside the box. What do you think game management is going to do to Mark Cuban or the owner of the team. The person that pays game management their checks at the end of the night. It happened! I'm not advocating giving a team a technical everytime a fan says something that I don't like. I'm just saying there are options. I like to know all my options before I make a decision. And remember, I said after the coach made his smart remark; "Okay, I going to mention that comment to the A/D!" I think those words would have ended anymore smart remarks from the coach in that game.

Last, I have not had a fan go completely crazy on me. I have always been able to calm the fans down with a verbal warning. Never have had to get game management to remove anyone. However, I will say this. I don't put nothing by no fan. Remember, fans in NY or might have been Chicago attacked a base coach from Kansas City. Where was game management?

Hard to tell exactly by this sentence structure, but if you're talking about the Royals-White Sox incident - on the field in about 10 seconds.

That being said - Go Cubs.

1) Um, yeah, but you're trying to use your NCAA procedure in a junior varsity high school game though. Don't you think that maybe....just maybe....you might be better off using rules that are actually applicable to the game your officiating in? Or should we just pick out whatever ruleset we might feel like using in any game?

2) Already answered. Use the head coach of the home team. The case play that I mentioned also tells you what to do if the disruption is not brought under control too. Why don't you quickly open up your case book, read play 2.8.1 and tell us what is recommended.

Oh yeah! That would be right. Because, um, yeah, we do this all the time. We don't do long switches 2 or 3 person, or how about court coverage 60 - 40, that's NCAA Women's. JR, this is such a minor grey area, I don't think anyone would complain accept you. Of course, you would throw an official under the bus here, if he did what I did, wouldn't you? He would never work another JV game for you, would he? The problem here, which you fail to acknowledge is not the way I handled it, but the HC inappropriate behavior. Take away that, this incident doesn't even happen. Now you and/or the coach want to pick a fight with me becasue I handled it wrong. In a JV game!!!???? That's funny....

For the last time, what if the person causing the problem IS THE HOME TEAM COACH!!!!????? Now what you gonna do? I will give the home team a technical before I go looking for game management. But, then again, that's just me.

If this head coach is sitting in the stands during a JV game he is not part of the bench and should be treated as any other spectator unless he is the game administrator, which, in my experience, is very rare. He doesn't get any more attention from me than any other fan. Definitely not a T. That would be looking for trouble. :rolleyes:

OS,

No long switches were done on the Men's side first if not at the same time as the Women's game. Not sure what that has to do with the discussion. This situation took place at a HS level. None of that is even relevant. In many places (including where I am) it is frowned upon to use college mechanics and many philosophies for HS games.

I guess you are going to try to tell me next how many college games you have worked and how much you know about the process. Remember there are other people here that work college ball too.

Peace

1) A minor grey area, Old School? You want to handle a problem arising in an NFHS game by trying to use rules from a completely different ruleset-the NCAA? And the solution that you recommend also happens to go <b>completely</b> against the procedures that the NFHS laid out in the case book and would like officials to use in their games? And that's a <b>minor</b> grey area? What would you call a <b>major</b> grey area? And um, yeah, I also think that you might possibly get a whole buncha complaints if you tried your recommended method ouside a rec league.

2) No, Old School, the person causing the problem is not <b>the</b> head coach in this game. He is a <b>FAN</b>! The head coach is sitting on the JV bench. The FED has already laid out how they want fans dealt with in the case play that I cited. It seems quite obvious though, even to a dummy like me, that you don't have a clue what procedure that the NFHS is actually recommending us to use. If I'm wrong, then just simply cite the FED procedure recommended in that case play, and tell us why you personally refuse to use it.

If I recall, it took that long only because they had to get through the KC bench kicking the crap out of those two hooligans.

Actually, now that I think about it, didn't those hooligans admit to being Cubs fans? ;)

Just for the record, here is what Old School very conveniently left out above. It is the procedure that the NCAA recommends and is the one that should be used in the situation that we are discussing. Please note that it is basically similar to the recommended NFHS recommendation also. I'll post it now because I don't think that Old School is about to cite the NFHS case play.

<u><b>NCAA RULE 10-6-6:</b></u> <i>"When the misconduct of a follower(s) is extreme or excessive, such behavior may be penalized by the official requesting home-management to eject from the premises the team follower(s) involved in the misbehavior. <b>In such case, an indirect foul shall NOT be assessed</b>."</i>

What Old School did above was akin to issuing a manual without the instructions.

That's been there a long time too, Old School.

Guys, it's okay that you would do it different from me. I'm not losing any sleep over it. Of course I view the home team coach as a fan, and as a fan I would give the home team a technical based on what the coach said to me. However, I would have to know that this fan is the head coach and in this scenario, I would pull the trigger. So the bigger argument is not that I pulled the trigger and gave the home team a undeserved technical. The bigger argument is why is the head coach from the home team insulting me by saying I will never work another game in this gym. That is a direct personal insult to me.

Now people like JR looks for problems, look to throw officials under the bus. He would completely side with the coach/school here, and I would never work another game at that facility again or get games cut from my schedule. The only reason I bring this up is because I have been around. I am closer to 50 than I am 49. I am a African American male in this country. I have experienced discrimination and biasness first hand. Now, you wonder why you don't get an assignment, it because of assigners that think like this guy. Oh, my guy didn't follow proper procedures, I just won't give him any more games. It happens folks. That's why the industry needs more balance, more people from different backgrounds to give it proper prospective. You see, if I'm the assigner and the coach complained to me about the procedure afterwards, and let's say the JV team lost by one point. To me, I'm not looking to throw my guys under the bus. I'm going to support them in situations where I believe they should never have to deal with. In other words, you get your coach in line and this doesn't happen. Furthermore, we're even. Your coach messed up and my guy arguably follow improper procedures, depending on which way you want to look at it. I'll say it's a wash, like a double foul. I'll say you drop your complaint about my official and I won't file a complaint with the league about improper conduct from your coach.

Here's another fallacy in JR logic. If the A/D and/or HC complains that a college procedure was done over a HS procedure. I would say, come on guys. Which would you rather have? Would you rather have 2 new referees who's just learning working your JV games or would you rather have a veteran crew of a mix of college/varsity HS officials working your JV game? The guy was available and he wanted to work so I mix him in. Realistically, no school administrator is going to squat at that. They will take an experience college guy over 2 new guys any day working their JV games. Even if they do dink up a procedure once or twice. Different story if it happens in a varsity game.

You're still missing the point, Old School.

The recommended NCAA and NFHS procedures are basically the <b>same</b>. Both rulesets recommend unloading the <b>fan</b> by using game management to do so, and also to <b>NOT</b> issue a technical foul while doing so.

You were recommending your <b>own</b> procedure, not the NCAA or NFHS procedures. Your recommended procedure is completely wrong compared to the NCAA/NFHS ones.

And please don't get into the race/bias nonsense either. You get knocked for your obvious lack of knowledge when it comes to basic ules, mechanics, procedures, etc. It's got nothing to do with anything else.

And you fail to answer my point, what do you do if it's game management that's causing the problem? Answer that? I'm not creating my own rules, I'm handling a situation that's not clearly defined in the rules. You may disagree with it, and it's okay, at least in my world, it's okay to agree to disagree. But to say I lack basic rule knowledge because of the position I take is an insult. Again, I have had this happen to me where game management (home team staff) was the problem. A/D was at the football game. What are you going to do now Mr.Knowitall?

Quote the rule if you can find it. If not, then let it go.

I lack basic mechanics too? My goodness, how did you come to that conclusion, especially since you have never seen me work? Is it the same way you come to the conclusion I like basic rule knowledge? Well, I don't think we're into basic rule knowledge here, but that's jmo. However, if you could do me just one favor, that's all I ask, try not to throw any more officials under the bus!

Peace

As I said, Old School, I already answered that question in another post. The answer comes direct from NFHS rule 2-8-1NOTE and case book play 2.8.1. Please look it up and tell us what you find.

Aw, t'hell with it. You don't have a rule or case book, so I'll lay it out for anybody else that's not sure. If an AD is causing the problem, you designate the head coach of the home team to become game management. You ask the head coach to remove the AD,Varsity coach, whatever from the gym. You do <b>not</b> give out a damn "T" in this situation. You stop the game until the fan/AD/Varsity coach disappears. If the home head coach that you designated refuses to follow your instructions and unload the varmint, you suspend the game, fill out a report and let the league deal with it.

NFHS rule2-8-1NOTE says -<i>When team supporters become unruly or interfere with the with the orderly progress of the game, the officials shall stop the game until the host management resolves the situation and the game can proceed in an orderly manner. In the absence of a designated school representative, the home coach shall serve as game management."</i>

Excerpts from NFHS case book play 2.8.1COMMENT:
- <i>"This may require the removal of team follower(s). This can be done without charging the supporter's team with a technical foul. The advised procedure is for the official to notify game management as to which follower(s) must be removed from the site. The officials may stop the game until host management resolves the situation."
- "If the disruption is not brought under control and the contest cannot safely continue, rather than assess several technical fouls, officials are advised to suspend the game."</i>

There! You got it all, Old School. That how it's done. You don't use <b>"The Stare"</b>. You don't throw out a buncha "T"s. You don't do anything that is gonna make the situation <b>worse</b>.

Hopefully that finishes this nonsense once and for all.

Trick-a-dick is in the house. I see that you adjusted the wording to fit your meaning. Let me give the reading audience the rest of the info you so eliquently left out.

NFHS Rule 2-8-1 Note: The home management or game committee is responsible for specator behavior..... The officials may call fouls (that's technicals fouls JR) on either team if it's supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game.

Stop the tape! as Russ Limbaugh would say.

That's NFHS rules but yet if I do what they recommend, you're telling me I'm wrong. You see, I'm trying to deal with this realistically. I don't think that what the coach told me rises to the level of me suspending the game. I also don't think the home management is going to remove the HC from his gym. Consider this a minute. I gonna go to the JV coach to tell him to remove his HC from the stands. Yeah, right! No, I'm not going there and I'm not going to put that pressure on the JV coach, either.

The only way I would even consider suspending a game is if I got a riot in the stands, or a tornado approaching. If the fans are being emotional, that's apart of the game and I'm going to keep the game rolling. However, if the HC is in the stands watching the game and he says something I consider to be inappropiate. Guess what coach, that's going to cost your JV team a technical. Now that you have pounded it into me JR, I will also say to the HC in this situation, please see rule 2-8-1 Note1. I bet you a dollar to a donut that the HC want have anything else to say to me after I do that, IMO.:D

Oh, and the NCAA supports my actions too!

Stop the tape again, Goober. If you owned a case book, you also might have read the following and not embarrassed yourself again:

<u><b>Case Book Play 2.8.1:</b></u>-- <i>"The rule book states that officials may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game. It is significant to note that the word used is "may". This gives permission, but does not in any way imply that officials must call technical fouls on team followers or supporters for unsporting acts. Thus, while officials do have the authority to penalize a team whose spectators interfere with the proper conduct of the game, <b>this authority must be used with extreme caution and discretion. While the authority is there, the official must rarely use it, because experience has demonstrated that calling hasty technical fouls on the crowd rarely solves the problem...</b>."</i> Note "extreme caution and discretion" and <b>"rarely use"</b>, OS. Sentences in the <b>"COMMENT"</b> part of that case play also iterates that calling a technical foul on the crowd is a last resort only.

The NFHS sureashell <b>isn't</b> recommending that "T"s should be called. They're recommending the complete opposite. If you owned a case book, you woulda already known that. If you belonged to an association that officiates high school games, you woulda know it also. That's what they teach their officials. It's only the "Rec-League Ronnies" like you that run around calling what they <b>think</b> is right, without <b>knowing</b> what is right.

Iow, as usual you are wrong.

Excuse me! Do you read your own writing? So they are recommending I call a common foul? If it's not a technical foul than what foul are they recommending I call?

Also, just like this is not a racial issue, this also has nothing to do with what association I belong too. I know it's difficult but please try to stay on the subject. You may want to make sure you take your mediciation before responding again. I don't want you to bust a vein or something worse trying to prove your point.

Peace

Actually, it does. If you had ever belonged in the past to an organization that properly trained it's officials, then you would already know the recommended way to deal with fans and we wouldn't be engaging in this stupid dialogue. It's very obvious that you, as of yet, have received absolutely <b>no</b> training in the rules, their application and the proper mechanics to be used. Furthermore, believe it or not, actually owning copies of the appropriate rule and case books and being able to refer to them would cut down immensely on the completely wrong and misleading answers that you insist on posting.

There a quite a few rec leagues out there that insist that the officials that they hire are properly trained and know the rules. It's unfortunate that you don't work in one of those, JMO/Old School.

I'm done. I didn't expect to change your mind anywhere along the line, but I sureashell also didn't want any new official reading this thread to think for a second that anything that you recommended should ever actually be tried.

There's the right way and the Old School way iow.:)

Okay, let's change the subject. I belong to about 10 associations. I bet in my entire career of officiating, I have refereed over 10,000 games. I have never called a technical foul on a fan, never. Will I ever call a technical foul on a fan and feel justified in doing so, yes! If, in a JV game, the HC is sitting in the stands and after making a call, the HC tells me from the stands, you will never referee another game in my gym. Well, since I'm not going to referee anymore games in this gym, I might as well go out with a bang! Whack! Technical foul on the fan, charge it to the home team. Fill out paperwork after the game.

Perhaps the smartest thing you have said in this thread. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. We can agree to disagree. Well, maybe not. You have to be right. Me, I just have to make the right call at the right time. My judgement.

This is where you are wrong. Officials new or old should embrace anything that makes them better. With the stiff competion of trying to move up the ladder. Officials should look for ways to set themselves apart from the crowd, the others. IOW, be different but be good. IOW, embrace new ways of thinking, new ways of looking at a old problem.

Your arguement of trying to teach/protect new officials is so old. This is everybody's out when they put their foot in mouth and can't get it out, on this forum. It's now all about the new officials. Well, I was argueing about the rule, not about new officials. However, I will say this about this extended dialog. This is about two old officials that refuses to give in. You say tomato, I say tomotto. You say the book says you can't call a technical. I say the book says you can. As long as those words remain typed in the book, I will continue to believe you can and when the condition is just right. Technical foul on the fan!!!!!!

Don't forget to take your medication.

Wow!!!!!

I think that you stated before that you started officiating back in 1990 iirc. So that would be......carry the two, minus three.....about 16 years ago. Correct? I'm not that good with the new math. Soooooo, if you have done <b>over</b> 10,000 games in your illustrious career, that would mean.....lemmee see here.......10,000 divided by 16 = oh, an absolute <b>minimum</b> of 625 games a year. Through rain, hail, sleet or snow, Old School has made it to his approximate 2 games a day, every single day of the year, folks. Geeze, OS, even God took Sunday off. Don't you even get just a <b>little</b> bit tired?

And <b>10(ten)</b> associations too? Gee, I know whole states that don't have 10 association in 'em.

I apologize for ever doubting you, Old School. Aamof, I'm going to put you in for Official of the Year.

We are not worthy......
http://deephousepage.com/smilies/respect.gif

When you add in AAU games, little league games where you work 6 to sometimes 8 games in a day. It's possible. I'm already over a 100 games since the start of the season, November. There are mulitple associations in my state, best to belong to all of them to get a game. There are multiple college associations, and other national associations (like AAU) that assign officials. I go wherever I can get a game.

I think you forgot to take your medication. Please, for the sake of the others, take your medication.