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-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   Illegal Screens (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/31155-illegal-screens.html)

Dan_ref Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
We teach our players that technique so we can "catch" the defender in the notch. If that defender runs into the middle of the screener, it is a little tougher to get free and around because they are stuck in-between those extended elbows. IOW, rather than hitting the screen and then sliding around it, the defender almost has to put it in reverse to get clear of the elbows then go around. You'll hear "get 'em in the notch" in our practices regularly. I learned about it from a major D1 coach whose camps I've worked.

I agree that it is probably illegal by the strict interpretation of the rule. But the next time it gets called on us will be the first time, so we'll stick with it.
I retract everything I've written in this thread.

If this is what you guys are teaching it is not a natural stance and is illegal and probably amounts to rough play.

I don't ever see this in the games I work, probably because running into a screener with elbows extended frontward and then being held by the screener would not lead to anything good for the screener.

Do you woman's officials see this in your games?

GarthB Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
We teach our players that technique so we can "catch" the defender in the notch. If that defender runs into the middle of the screener, it is a little tougher to get free and around because they are stuck in-between those extended elbows. IOW, rather than hitting the screen and then sliding around it, the defender almost has to put it in reverse to get clear of the elbows then go around. You'll hear "get 'em in the notch" in our practices regularly. I learned about it from a major D1 coach whose camps I've worked.

I agree that it is probably illegal by the strict interpretation of the rule. But the next time it gets called on us will be the first time, so we'll stick with it.

Well, as they say: If coaches and players didn't lie or cheat, they wouldn't need referees.

Jurassic Referee Wed Jan 24, 2007 01:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
Well, as they say: If coaches and players didn't lie or cheat, they wouldn't need referees.
Amen.<i></i>

blindzebra Wed Jan 24, 2007 01:14am
Wow, Dan, JR and I agreeing in a thread...I knew that snow we got here in Arizona was a sign.:D

A Pennsylvania Coach Wed Jan 24, 2007 09:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Which was exactly PA Coach's point, Jeff. He's deliberately teaching a type of screen which is illegal because he <b>IS</b> getting away with it.

At the back of the NFHS rulebook, there's a page called "COACHES CODE OF ETHICS" supposedly put out by the NFHS Coaches Association. There's a statement in there that reads <i>"The coach shall master the contest rules and shall teach them to his or her team members. <b>The coach shall not seek an advantage by circumvention of the spirit or letter of the rules</b>."</i>. Well, ain't that a hoot? It's right up there with <i>"The coach shall respect and support contest officials."</i>:)
The officials are supposed to know the rules. If we do something illegal, they call it and we adjust.

Jurassic Referee Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
The officials are supposed to know the rules. If we do something illegal, they call it and we adjust.
Well, that certainly tells me all that I need to know about you.

I'll teach something that I know is completely illegal, and it's OK because I've never been caught.

You're a credit to the coaching community.:rolleyes:

Dan_ref Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Well, that certainly tells me all that I need to know about you.

I'll teach something that I know is completely illegal, and it's OK because I've never been caught.

You're a credit to the coaching community.:rolleyes:
Here's something I didn't read in a fortune cookie, Confuscius actually said this:

The mind of the superior man is conversant with righteousness. The mind of the mean man is conversant with gain.

Your lucky number is 11 (I added that part)

A Pennsylvania Coach Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Well, that certainly tells me all that I need to know about you.

I'll teach something that I know is completely illegal, and it's OK because I've never been caught.

You're a credit to the coaching community.:rolleyes:
I'll give this one last try before I give up.

I don't know that it is completely illegal. I do know it is a judgment call, and in the judgment of dozens of officials over the past several years, it is completely LEGAL.

If one gets called, then it is ILLEGAL, and we'll abide by that judgment.

Get off your soapbox and join us back here in the real world.

Dan_ref Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:53am
How can extending elbows forward in this un-natural manner to screen and then hold NOT be illegal?

There are 3 possibilities:

- Coach is not describing what he's actually teaching well enough in his posts

- Players are not actually executing on the court what coach is teaching

- The officials the coach run in to are not seeing this illegal action or they are ignoring it.

I know some PA officials so I doubt it's the third option (but if it is I wonder what other rough play they are letting go :rolleyes: ).

As I said I don't see this in my games, but if I did I would make sure it didn't happen twice...unless the screened player did that for me.

IREFU2 Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
My goodness.

If he told me that I would have an illegal screen in his area within the first 2 minutes of the game.

geeze.
He must be on crack!, Not Rut, but the partner that made that statement.

riden Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
I retract everything I've written in this thread.

If this is what you guys are teaching it is not a natural stance and is illegal and probably amounts to rough play.

I don't ever see this in the games I work, probably because running into a screener with elbows extended frontward and then being held by the screener would not lead to anything good for the screener.

Do you woman's officials see this in your games?

Not you guys, I never said anything about the notch.

What he is teaching and what I am tallking about, are two different things. Not talking about aggresion or elbows to the throat. I never said anything about that.

The thread has been hijacked, but the original question has only been answered by a few.

Ignoring Penn Coachs tactic, is he/she out of the cylinder.?

Jurassic Referee Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
If one gets called, then it is ILLEGAL, and we'll abide by that judgment.

Get off your soapbox and join us back here in the real world.
And you'll continue to teach and employ it until you do happen to get called. And if a player gets hurt while you're using an illegal tactic, that would be OK too. Great rationalization. Great ethics.

You'll never get it. It might be the real world but that doesn't mean that it doesn't disgust me. I'll stand by my opinion of you, not that I think that'll make you lose any sleep anyway.

blindzebra Wed Jan 24, 2007 03:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by riden
Not you guys, I never said anything about the notch.

What he is teaching and what I am tallking about, are two different things. Not talking about aggresion or elbows to the throat. I never said anything about that.

The thread has been hijacked, but the original question has only been answered by a few.

Ignoring Penn Coachs tactic, is he/she out of the cylinder.?

Extending the arms fully or partially other than vertically so that freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the arms occurs is not legal. These positions are employed when rebounding, screening or in various aspects of postplay...That is directly from the rule book 10.6.1.

A player shall not: hold, push, charge, trip; nor impede the progress of an opponent by extending an arm, shoulder, hip or knee, or by bending the body into other than a normal position...also from 10.6.1

There you have it, IT'S ILLEGAL!

CoachP Wed Jan 24, 2007 03:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by riden
Ignoring Penn Coachs tactic, is he/she out of the cylinder.?
I cannot pass on this one...where do I find this "cylinder" in the rule book?

....besides BI ....



I used to teach boys JV to cover the family jewels.
But now that I have girls I tell them to cover whatever you want, just make sure the Officials can see your hands and arms up againt your bodies somewhere.

My girls tend to lean forward on setting screens....anticipating and bracing for a train wreck.....can't seem to break them of that. When they lean out, the "I Dream of Jeannie" pose comes out. We have at least one illegal screen/game
:mad:

Raymond Wed Jan 24, 2007 03:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachP
My girls tend to lean forward on setting screens....anticipating and bracing for a train wreck.....can't seem to break them of that. When they lean out, the "I Dream of Jeannie" pose comes out. We have at least one illegal screen/game
:mad:
I would never have called a foul on Barbara Eden in her prime.


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