Illegal Screens
 

I coach and ref a jr high league, NCAA rules.

First problem, too many coaches are reffing and I think this is the root of the problem.

We have a coach with a very competitive team (girls) who has taught players to screen in this manner:

legs slightly bent, arms locked (hand on elbows and biceps) and out in front of the body for protection but not out past the toes.

Some refs are calling this illegal, citing they are out of thier cylinder. To be clear, players are not leaning forward, they are leaning back, with knees bent. The call is not because they are reaching for players, but that the technique creates an illegal situation.


Any comments on the legitimacy of this argument??

They are not allowed to extend their arms, so yes I can see that getting called, because it's a natural reaction to lean into someone that is about to run into you.

Why coaches teach that or the hands at the throat, elbows out is beyond me.

Here's a tip: Feet shoulder width apart, arms slightly in front of the body, straight, with hands clasped covering the groin.

That's the boys' technique, girls like to protect themselves a little higher.

Then I suggest arms crossed, hands on opposite shoulder, because, every alternative I've seen leads to either the lean in push or the chickenwing chuck.

I see your point BUT

The argument is, even if the technique is perfect it is illegal.

From what I see, these girls have very good technique and are not leaning.

They are not allowed to extend their arms, so what is being taught is illegal.

The way I envision it as long as they don't overtly extend their elbows out beyond their shoulders or use their elbows to chuck the other player this stance is perfectly legal.

They are extending them infront of their body, not out to the sides...knees bent leaning back arms out, but not beyond their toes. Think the I Dream of Genie pose.

I read that as arms extended nearly a foot in front of their body.;)

But because their knees are bent (semi-squat), the arms are over their toes.

The cylinder should go from toes to your butt in that position, correct? And the arms, while in front of the body, are still over the toes.

This is really the basis of the disagreement

Maybe you see them extending their upper arms & elbows out in an exaggerated stance. If that's what it is then I agree it could be illegal. What I envision is they are in a natural stance - their arms do not have to be held as flat as possible against their chests to be legal.

As long as they don't chuck the player coming at them or the player running by them they are fine.

The first contact with the defender is with extended arms, I could further argue that this doesn't meet the natural position part of the rules either.

That works as a guideline, assuming they are in a natural position. I think your screeners are legal.

I agree that a screener cannot use their arms, lean over or move into the screened player. I usually call this based on what the "screenee" does. If the player being screened just gives up position, I will likely pass on any foul. I will liken my philosophy on screens to what my philosophy on holding in football. The violated players need to do something to get a consistent call.

Now some will say, "You cannot have a philosophy like that; it does not fit the rules." Whatever my philosophy is, I tend to call by far many more illegal screens than anyone. I even had an official in a pre-game say, "I have never called a team control foul and do not see myself calling one."

Peace

My goodness.

If he told me that I would have an illegal screen in his area within the first 2 minutes of the game.

geeze.

I have seen this used. As long as the arms give when contact occurrs I would allow it as long as the arms where flexed very little. I would have to watch specifically for it to be sure, but I suspect the arms flex out some as part of absorbing the contact when the arms are initially kept against the body. However I have noticed a subsequent action that I wouldn't allow. When contact does occurr, hands are relleased, with the elbows staying extended. That creates a bit of a "|V|" shape where the defender is between the elbows. The defender is then placed at an illegal disadvantage IMO when that happens.

Frankly, I can see no benefit from teaching that position, and without seeing it, I have a difficult time seeing it as being a natural stance.

To squat and lean back, most likely requires a base wider than shoulder width, which can get you called for an illegal screen if the defender gets caught up on the extended leg when going around.

The extended arms means first contact is with the arms of the screener, which can also get you called.

Seems to me to be a very bad technique even if it is perfectly done.

Remember screens are supposed to be a passive act, every thing about that stance is aggressive.

Sam, what the arms do <b>after</b> the contact doesn't have anything to do with whether the screen is legal or not. The position of the arms and where the contact occurs will determine whether the screen is legal or not.

We teach our players that technique so we can "catch" the defender in the notch. If that defender runs into the middle of the screener, it is a little tougher to get free and around because they are stuck in-between those extended elbows. IOW, rather than hitting the screen and then sliding around it, the defender almost has to put it in reverse to get clear of the elbows then go around. You'll hear "get 'em in the notch" in our practices regularly. I learned about it from a major D1 coach whose camps I've worked.

I agree that it is probably illegal by the strict interpretation of the rule. But the next time it gets called on us will be the first time, so we'll stick with it.

The original coach in question learned the form from a Canaidan AUAA college coach. Who still teaches it.

The benefit is you get your hands in a ready postion to receive a pass faster.

It isn't probably illegal. It <b>is</b> illegal. It's a legal screen followed by an illegal hold.

How is that a benefit when you're setting a screen? :confused: You ain't gonna get a pass.

There's no pass to receive when the ball is going the other way on the foul.;)

But it has to be called. It is legal until someone calls it. We make a lot of decisions while officiating. I still say if the player being screened does not do something to show they are getting away, it is less likely to be called.

Peace

Puts you in position for the pick and roll faster and you start with your hands up.

In order for this "notch" to be formed and effective, the arms need to be extended away from the body, which makes it illegal.

Only place this technique would be legal is at a charity basketball event being play at the Playboy Mansion.

Which was exactly PA Coach's point, Jeff. He's deliberately teaching a type of screen which is illegal because he <b>IS</b> getting away with it.

At the back of the NFHS rulebook, there's a page called "COACHES CODE OF ETHICS" supposedly put out by the NFHS Coaches Association. There's a statement in there that reads <i>"The coach shall master the contest rules and shall teach them to his or her team members. <b>The coach shall not seek an advantage by circumvention of the spirit or letter of the rules</b>."</i>. Well, ain't that a hoot? It's right up there with <i>"The coach shall respect and support contest officials."</i>:)

Agree. I am pointing out a sitch I have seen that leads to a hold as part of the screener's positioning. The hold occurrs immediatley following the screen if it happens as I described, depending on age, ability, and severity.

That sounds pretty good. I think I will starting putting that on all my posts. :D
(depending on age, ability, and severity)

haha when I played basketball, I was taught to screen with my hands covering my cajones... because #1 i was a tall kid, and #2, i have seen too many players take cheap shots at screeners, and also accidental and not been called for it. My coach said "get a wide base, and cover your nuts"

What? what does having your hands up have to do with the pick and roll? I was taught never to verbalize or show that you are open... especially on this play... If I set a screen, and was open, the ball-handler better get me the ball, because he should be looking at me right after the pick... and you would normally get a bounce pass off a pick and roll

I retract everything I've written in this thread.

If this is what you guys are teaching it is not a natural stance and is illegal and probably amounts to rough play.

I don't ever see this in the games I work, probably because running into a screener with elbows extended frontward and then being held by the screener would not lead to anything good for the screener.

Do you woman's officials see this in your games?

Well, as they say: If coaches and players didn't lie or cheat, they wouldn't need referees.

Amen.<i></i>

Wow, Dan, JR and I agreeing in a thread...I knew that snow we got here in Arizona was a sign.:D

The officials are supposed to know the rules. If we do something illegal, they call it and we adjust.

Well, that certainly tells me all that I need to know about you.

I'll teach something that I know is completely illegal, and it's OK because I've never been caught.

You're a credit to the coaching community.:rolleyes:

Here's something I didn't read in a fortune cookie, Confuscius actually said this:

The mind of the superior man is conversant with righteousness. The mind of the mean man is conversant with gain.

Your lucky number is 11 (I added that part)

I'll give this one last try before I give up.

I don't know that it is completely illegal. I do know it is a judgment call, and in the judgment of dozens of officials over the past several years, it is completely LEGAL.

If one gets called, then it is ILLEGAL, and we'll abide by that judgment.

Get off your soapbox and join us back here in the real world.

How can extending elbows forward in this un-natural manner to screen and then hold NOT be illegal?

There are 3 possibilities:

- Coach is not describing what he's actually teaching well enough in his posts

- Players are not actually executing on the court what coach is teaching

- The officials the coach run in to are not seeing this illegal action or they are ignoring it.

I know some PA officials so I doubt it's the third option (but if it is I wonder what other rough play they are letting go :rolleyes: ).

As I said I don't see this in my games, but if I did I would make sure it didn't happen twice...unless the screened player did that for me.

He must be on crack!, Not Rut, but the partner that made that statement.

Not you guys, I never said anything about the notch.

What he is teaching and what I am tallking about, are two different things. Not talking about aggresion or elbows to the throat. I never said anything about that.

The thread has been hijacked, but the original question has only been answered by a few.

Ignoring Penn Coachs tactic, is he/she out of the cylinder.?

And you'll continue to teach and employ it until you do happen to get called. And if a player gets hurt while you're using an illegal tactic, that would be OK too. Great rationalization. Great ethics.

You'll never get it. It might be the real world but that doesn't mean that it doesn't disgust me. I'll stand by my opinion of you, not that I think that'll make you lose any sleep anyway.

Extending the arms fully or partially other than vertically so that freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the arms occurs is not legal. These positions are employed when rebounding, screening or in various aspects of postplay...That is directly from the rule book 10.6.1.

A player shall not: hold, push, charge, trip; nor impede the progress of an opponent by extending an arm, shoulder, hip or knee, or by bending the body into other than a normal position...also from 10.6.1

There you have it, IT'S ILLEGAL!

I cannot pass on this one...where do I find this "cylinder" in the rule book?

....besides BI ....



I used to teach boys JV to cover the family jewels.
But now that I have girls I tell them to cover whatever you want, just make sure the Officials can see your hands and arms up againt your bodies somewhere.

My girls tend to lean forward on setting screens....anticipating and bracing for a train wreck.....can't seem to break them of that. When they lean out, the "I Dream of Jeannie" pose comes out. We have at least one illegal screen/game
:mad:

I would never have called a foul on Barbara Eden in her prime.

I don't agree with your interpretation of that rule.

I don't think that locking your arms in the manner described qualifies as extension or partial extension of your ams.

Then why ask the question, if all you do is ignore the answer?

That is the rule book, it's clear that 1. locking your arms in front of your body is extending your arm other than vertical, so what's to interpret? 2. feet wide, leaning back in a squat, with your arms locked several inches in front of the body is not a natural position, because you are bending your body in an unnatural way...again both fall completely under the no-no's in 10.6.1.

If I'm coaching against your team, my defenders will be contacting that illegal technique all game long, drawing one foul after another.

OK

How is crossing your arms on your chest vertical??? I read extension as extending the elbow. And the elbow is not extended.

How is it an unnatural postion, you are in no different body position than your are receiving a pass? How can it be unnatural?

touching their chest
 

Unless their arms are touching their chest or stomach while they are crossed, they are extended even if ever so slightly......illegal

another point
 

Here is one I have seen and heard coaches, and even a few officials use....if it isn't called it is legal....using that logic, and I agree with it, if it is called it is ILLEGAL....so there you have it, illegal LOL :D

I think you're envisioning a entirely different pose than the rest of us.

I read the description to be that the upper arms are pointed directly away from the body (with the elbows out) and the forearms are folded back in, toward the chest.

I see the I Dream of Jeanie pose, with arms out from the shoulders, arms crossed with hands on opposite biceps...although Barbara Eden wasn't in an unnatural squat. But what part of the arm that is out isn't really important, because by rule ANY PART being extended other than vertical is illegal if contact hinders an opponent, which is the entire purpose of a screen.;)

Geeze...this is a thought provoking post.

Unnatural squats
 

Jeez I was just searching for some help on screening and got myself all wrapped up in Barbara Eden and unnatural squats.

As opposed to Barbara Eden and natural squats?

http://www.idreamofjeannie.com/gallery/small30.jpg

From what I can see, this would be an illegal screen.

But I would want to see it again. And again.

Just a quick question that I didn't think deserved it's own thread. But what type of foul is an illegal screen? Player control or blocking or what?

It could be any of the above depending on whether the screener had the ball and the specific action. It's most often a block.

I coached girl's varsity for 10 years and always told them if they didn't want to get called for illegal screen to stand with feet shoulder width apart, arms at sides - touching their shorts. It worked. We didn't have many calls against us for illegal screens and the ones we had - the girls would look at me and tell me they weren't set or something. No one got hurt either.

As a former resident of Cocoa Beach, I feel it my duty to ask this board to refrain from any I Dream of Jeannie references that may be considered derogatory. Squats, whether natural or unnatural, were never part of Jeannie's personna. I ask that the Decency/Thought police step in and expunge those naughty images from everyones imagination.:D

Good luck with that. :D

No? Why do you think he's got that goofy grin??

http://www.born-today.com/Today/pix/hagman_larry.jpg

Dr. Bellows often wondered the same thing. Cause he's Major Nelson...he ALWAYS had a goofy grin. It had nothing to do with Jeannie's squats.