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-   -   Three Big Sky Officials Suspended (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/31151-three-big-sky-officials-suspended.html)

iref4him Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:28am

Three Big Sky Officials Suspended
 
http://www.helenair.com/articles/200...2012307_02.txt

Interesting article. Any thoughts??

Adam Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:32am

Reinforces the prevaling opinion here that not correctly applying the rules can get you into trouble with your assigners.

tomegun Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:50am

After the NFL playoffs last year I made a comment about the spotlight being on officials and it was met with negative responses. Well, there continue to be issues with officials in different sports and officials continue to be punished. I can say for certain, some officials would not think very highly of a site like this, but we talk about plays all the time and that only helps. This is an unfortunate situation that was probably thought out after the fact and the officials were punished accordingly.

Old School Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:12am

I wonder how do they impose a one game suspension? In basketball, you're mainly working with a different crew every game. So each of these officials next game is off the books? It could be 3 different games at 3 different locations.

I also wonder if the 3 points made a difference in the game, and if not, why publicize the officials mistake? I thought that we are protected by such public discipline. If it cost the team the game, okay, yeah, because the public has a right to know what you are going to do about it. But something internal like that, not sure if it needs to be publicize. Now these guys got a bulleye on there head no matter where they work afterwards. If I'm making a salary like what some of the coaches are making, okay, my mistakes should get magnified, comes with the job. But officials are not getting that type of cake for pay. Why ruin there reputation for something that didn't cost the team a lost?

tomegun Tue Jan 23, 2007 02:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School
I wonder how do they impose a one game suspension? In basketball, you're mainly working with a different crew every game. So each of these officials next game is off the books? It could be 3 different games at 3 different locations.

I also wonder if the 3 points made a difference in the game, and if not, why publicize the officials mistake? I thought that we are protected by such public discipline. If it cost the team the game, okay, yeah, because the public has a right to know what you are going to do about it. But something internal like that, not sure if it needs to be publicize. Now these guys got a bulleye on there head no matter where they work afterwards. If I'm making a salary like what some of the coaches are making, okay, my mistakes should get magnified, comes with the job. But officials are not getting that type of cake for pay. Why ruin there reputation for something that didn't cost the team a lost?

The Jig is up! You have been busted and you aren't going to weasel your way out of this one. Here are the reasons why this post shows that you have been less than truthful:

1. You wonder how they impose a one game suspension? If you really officiated and assigned at the level you say you do then you would know that any one official can simply be replaced in a game. Just because you replace one official on a crew doesn't mean that the other members, who weren't involved in this game, lose that game. There are a ton of officials chomping at the bit to take these games. If you did college ball you would know that.
2. You thought we are protected from public discipline? Where have you been? Sports officials get called out more than ever when they make a mistake or do something within the rules that the normal fan, coach, player or broadcaster does not know. Again, where have you been?
3. Do you know how much a Big Sky official makes? It isn't chump change. The Big Sky office used to buy the plane tickets so it wasn't as much as some conferences, but they still probably make about 30 times more than you make in your rec games. :D
4. So you think their reputation will be ruined big guy? I believe the guy who went to the monitor before officials were supposed to do so has several final fours under his belt. Also, I believe the officials involved in the play that created the men's blarge rules are final four officials. If that is ruining a reputation, would someone please ruin mine?

How are you going to backpedal and explain how you could make such - no offense to anyone intended - rookie comments?

GoodwillRef Tue Jan 23, 2007 02:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School
I wonder how do they impose a one game suspension? In basketball, you're mainly working with a different crew every game. So each of these officials next game is off the books? It could be 3 different games at 3 different locations.

I also wonder if the 3 points made a difference in the game, and if not, why publicize the officials mistake? I thought that we are protected by such public discipline. If it cost the team the game, okay, yeah, because the public has a right to know what you are going to do about it. But something internal like that, not sure if it needs to be publicize. Now these guys got a bulleye on there head no matter where they work afterwards. If I'm making a salary like what some of the coaches are making, okay, my mistakes should get magnified, comes with the job. But officials are not getting that type of cake for pay. Why ruin there reputation for something that didn't cost the team a lost?

I hear it all the time from my college supervisors "accountability." We the big pay checks comes more "accountability!"

bob jenkins Tue Jan 23, 2007 02:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef
I hear it all the time from my college supervisors "accountability." We the big pay checks comes more "accountability!"

Do a bottle of water and a hot shower come with the paychecks? ;)

Jurassic Referee Tue Jan 23, 2007 03:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins
Do a bottle of water and a hot shower come with the paychecks? ;)

Yeah, they'll give you a bottle of warm water. It's a two-for-one kinda deal.

Jurassic Referee Tue Jan 23, 2007 03:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun
You wonder how they impose a one game suspension? If you really officiated and assigned at the level you say you do then you would know that any one official can simply be replaced in a game. Just because you replace one official on a crew doesn't mean that the other members, who weren't involved in this game, lose that game. There are a ton of officials chomping at the bit to take these games. If you did college ball you would know that.

If he did high school ball, he would know that.:rolleyes:

GoodwillRef Tue Jan 23, 2007 03:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins
Do a bottle of water and a hot shower come with the paychecks? ;)

Hot water...what is that?

Adam Tue Jan 23, 2007 03:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef
Hot water...what is that?

I think it's what my driveway is made of; 'cause everytime I get home I'm in it.

Old School Tue Jan 23, 2007 03:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun
The Jig is up! You have been busted and you aren't going to weasel your way out of this one. Here are the reasons why this post shows that you have been less than truthful:

1. You wonder how they impose a one game suspension? If you really officiated and assigned at the level you say you do then you would know that any one official can simply be replaced in a game. Just because you replace one official on a crew doesn't mean that the other members, who weren't involved in this game, lose that game. There are a ton of officials chomping at the bit to take these games. If you did college ball you would know that. I do know this. There's a lot of officials chomping at the bit to get a chance.
2. You thought we are protected from public discipline? Where have you been? Sports officials get called out more than ever when they make a mistake or do something within the rules that the normal fan, coach, player or broadcaster does not know. Again, where have you been? I would think that they would try to keep this in-house as much as possible because of liability issues. For instance, if a official makes the same mistakes and his name is not mention in the public forum like the paper, then you might have some credibility issues.
3. Do you know how much a Big Sky official makes? It isn't chump change. The Big Sky office used to buy the plane tickets so it wasn't as much as some conferences, but they still probably make about 30 times more than you make in your rec games. I don't think a Big Sky official is making near the money of a Big sky coach, imo :D
4. So you think their reputation will be ruined big guy? I believe the guy who went to the monitor before officials were supposed to do so has several final fours under his belt. Also, I believe the officials involved in the play that created the men's blarge rules are final four officials. If that is ruining a reputation, would someone please ruin mine? The question becomes, do you think they will get anymore Final Four appearances because of this? And if they where, you know they're going to be under a microscope, would you want that undue pressure?
How are you going to backpedal and explain how you could make such - no offense to anyone intended - rookie comments?

No offense taken, read the RED notes.

tomegun Tue Jan 23, 2007 03:52pm

Old School, you should know about credibility since yours just took another hit! :D

Old School Tue Jan 23, 2007 04:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun
Old School, you should know about credibility since yours just took another hit! :D

Since I don't have to worry about getting any games from anyone on this forum, it's like water under the bridge. It keeps on flowing and I keep on going, on to my next assignment.

Nevadaref Tue Jan 23, 2007 04:26pm

"...in light of the recent NCAA bulletin, which specifically addresses ’do-overs’..."

Could someone please post this bulletin. I would like to see what it says. Is it on e-officials?

Raymond Tue Jan 23, 2007 04:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School
Since I don't have to worry about getting any games from anyone on this forum

How do you know that for sure?

Jurassic Referee Tue Jan 23, 2007 04:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
How do you know that for sure?

Because he assigns all his own high school and college games, silly.:D

smoref Tue Jan 23, 2007 05:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
"...in light of the recent NCAA bulletin, which specifically addresses ’do-overs’..."

Could someone please post this bulletin. I would like to see what it says. Is it on e-officials?




2006-07 NCAA Women’s Basketball
RULE INTERPRETATIONS & CASE PLAYS

1/3/07 Timer’s Mistakes and “Do-overs”
Play 1: A1 releases a shot near the sounding of the shot clock horn. The try is successful. Team B inbounds the ball and is dribbling the ball when the official blows the whistle to stop play. The officials then determine that a shot clock violation by Team A occurred. Team A’s basket is cancelled, the time elapsed since the alleged shot clock violation occurred is placed back on the game clock and play is resumed with a throw-in by Team B under Team A’s basket. Did the officials administer this play correctly?
Ruling 1: No. When the try by A1 was successful and no whistle was blown for a shot clock violation then, in the judgment of the officials, no shot clock violation occurred (9-11.2; A.R. 188). As per Rule 2-14.8 the shot clock horn shall not stop play unless recognized by an official’s whistle. If a shot clock violation had occurred, then the officials should have stopped play immediately. The officials judged that the shot was released within the shot clock period. When a new shot clock period began with Team B’s throw-in touching a player inbounds, it was too late to call a violation and/or cancel the basket (2-6.5.a). In addition, a shot clock violation, as with any other violation, is a judgment call of the official and is not reviewable using a monitor with the exception of a reading of 0.00 on the game clock (2-5.2.b and e; 2-5.3.e).
A shot clock violation is not a correctable error and the only time a score can be cancelled is in the case of a correctable error (2-11) or as a result of an obvious mistake by a shot clock operator (2-6.6). For example, the correctable error of erroneously counting or cancelling a score DOES NOT apply to judgment calls made or missed by officials. Erroneously counting/cancelling a basket pertains to a legitimate basket scored/not scored and the official erred in how he/she scored/did not score the basket (i.e., gave the basket to the wrong team or awarded a three instead of a two or visa versa; 2-11.1.e; A.R. 25 and 26). Whether or not a shot is released within a shot clock period is a judgment call as to whether or not a violation did/did not occur. Violations are not correctable errors. In both cases the error or mistake must be corrected within the prescribed time limits set forth by rule for each.
The only instances when time can be placed back on the game clock are when either a timing mistake or a malfunctioning of the clock occurs and only within the permitted time limits prescribed. When the mistake is by a shot clock operator, that mistake can only be corrected in the shot clock period in which the mistake occurred (2-6.6; A.R. 15). Rule 2-5.1.f outlines the time limits set forth to correct a mistake by the game clock operator or malfunctioning clock (2-6.4). According to NCAA rules, there are no ‘do-overs’. Officials commit errors and timer’s make mistakes and only a select few of each are permitted by rule to be corrected. Officials must know which errors or mistakes are permitted by rule to be corrected and what time limits restrict those corrections.

Play 2: With 4 seconds remaining on the game clock, A1 makes a throw-in to A2. The game clock does not start when the throw-in is touched inbounds by A2. The ball is passed twice, a shot is taken and the rebound is tipped out of bounds by B1. Prior to placing the ball at the disposal of A1 for the throw-in, the official realizes that there are 4 seconds on the game clock indicating that the game clock was not started on the previous throw-in.
Ruling 2: Rule 2-6.1 states that when an obvious timing mistake has occurred because of failure to start or stop the game clock properly, the mistake shall be corrected only when the referee has definite information relative to the time involved. The officials have definite information that the game clock did not start. If a monitor were available, the officials would be permitted to go to the monitor to determine the correct time to be placed on the game clock if any time remains (2-5.1.f; A.R. 8). If a monitor were not available, the officials are to confer with each other and/or check with the official timer to determine the correct time to be placed on the game clock or if any time remains in the game. By rule, a decision must be made relative to the time involved. The officials are not permitted by rule to leave 4 seconds on the game clock and repeat the initial throw-in by A1. According to NCAA rules, there are no ‘do-overs’.
Play 3: An official tosses the ball for the opening jump ball. Immediately after the ball is legally touched by jumper A1, it falls to the floor and lands between the jumpers. The official blows the whistle to stop play and determines that due to the unusual nature of the situation that the toss should be repeated. The officials put the original time back on the clock and repeat the toss to start the game. Did the officials administer this play correctly?
Ruling 3: No. When the official blew an inadvertent whistle, play should have been resumed at the point of interruption which is a re-jump with no adjustment to the clock since the alternating possession procedure had not been established. There was nothing illegal with the toss, the touch by A1, or the fact that the ball fell to the floor (2-4). Time should not have been placed on the game clock if the game clock started properly when the ball was legally touched by A1 (5-13.2). If the tossed ball is legally touched and the game clock is properly started, then there is no reason to put time back on the game clock even if a violation occurs after the legal touch. The only instances when time can be placed back on the game clock is when a timing mistake or a malfunctioning of the clock occurs only within the permitted time limits prescribed (2-5.1.f; 2-6.6; A.R. 15). According to NCAA rules, there are no ‘do-overs’.

Nevadaref Tue Jan 23, 2007 05:10pm

Thanks, smoref.

I also found the following:
    1. f. Officials are not permitted to perform a ‘do-over’ when things do not seem right or fair. Incorporating personal officiating philosophies with total disregard for NCAA rules is never appropriate. It may also be that officials are not totally disregarding a rule; they simply may not know the applicable rule. When officials know and enforce the rules, then the game can be called the same way for everyone who plays it.

AZ_REF Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School
I wonder how do they impose a one game suspension? In basketball, you're mainly working with a different crew every game. So each of these officials next game is off the books? It could be 3 different games at 3 different locations.

Actually it's not their next game. One of them had a game back at that school that he lost, another lost a game way late in the season, and the third doesn't have any more games this year.

Scrapper1 Wed Jan 24, 2007 09:24am

Quote:

By rule, a decision must be made relative to the time involved. The officials are not permitted by rule to leave 4 seconds on the game clock and repeat the initial throw-in by A1. According to NCAA rules, there are no ‘do-overs’.
What if there's no monitor, the timer is no help and none of the officials had a count? You can't leave it at 4 seconds and have a do-over, but can you leave it at 4 seconds and just continue the game?

Without definite knowledge, how do you adjust the clock?

Old School Wed Jan 24, 2007 09:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
How do you know that for sure?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Because he assigns all his own high school and college games, silly.:D

No, because I don't come out here to get assignments. I come out here to learn and engage in discussion about a sport I so truely love. In fact, I live 2 lives when it comes to bb. I live a different life when with the players than I do with you, the officials on this forum. You guys here know the rules like they (the players) know how to play the game. You are both better than me. However, I truly love being in both places. I love learning what I thought I knew before but didn't. In fact, I would say I am lucky.

Getting back to getting assignments. I have no more problems with that anymore.

Scrapper1 Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:05am

By the way, is anybody else having trouble getting on Eoffcials.com today? My computer can't load the page for some reason. . . :confused:

Raymond Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1
By the way, is anybody else having trouble getting on Eoffcials.com today? My computer can't load the page for some reason. . . :confused:

I got on easy today. I'm even able to view the video bulletins.

Jurassic Referee Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1
By the way, is anybody else having trouble getting on Eoffcials.com today? My computer can't load the page for some reason. . . :confused:

I just quickly went there. No problem.

What browzer are you using?

Scrapper1 Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:34am

Must've been a bad bookmark. I just typed in the page address and it worked. Thanks for the feedback.


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